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Ran Morrissett

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« on: November 07, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
What amazes me is how Ross always seemed able to create very short green to tee walks and yet on many modern courses (out of fairness, I'm refering only to ones without houses), the walk from the green to the next tee is the length of a short golf hole.

On non-housing based courses, why is the walk so much longer on a modern course than it ever was before?

People have the ability to miss the ball a bit wilder these days and I appreciate the safety factor, but still, these 75-150 yard walks between holes seems a sure sign that the routing (or something) is wrong.

Cheers,


Jim_Kennedy

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2001, 01:41:00 PM »
Ran,
Safety probably is a large concern and causes some of these longish walks.
But a good routing could also be the cause of some of these walks. The next "best" hole might be 100 yds. from the prior "best". If that were the case wouldn't the walk be worth it?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Craig_Rokke

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2001, 01:59:00 PM »
Applebrook was sure a good walking course from what I saw.

TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »
That's a great question and I have no idea. I only know that the really short green to tee walks of the pre WW2 courses are as rare as a hen's tooth on the post WW2 courses.

If you asked me why that is I would probably say that architects and golfers could see the day dawning where the golfer would sit his large ass on a seat, press on an accelorator and take a cart to a tee somewhere other than near the last green!

And somebody else probably told the odd architect that just like "America the Mobile Beautiful" there is money to be made in that thar asphalt!! Right Barny?


TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
Actually Ran, I just might have it!! It may be two month old Applebrook! Gil Hanse sure did his best that way!!!

TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
Sorry CraigR, I didn't see your post. I think we got it!

Mark_Huxford

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2001, 03:26:00 PM »
This is an interesting question Ran and one I feel goes right to the heart of issues like pace and continuity of the round and the designer's philosophy of whether a golf course is a single entity or just 18 holes.

I recall Tom Doak asking on this board a while ago for examples of greens integrated with the following hole's tee block. If that's what Tom is working on at the moment then I have to say I feel he's on the right track. It's always best to hole out and then be hitting your next tee shot soon after. Or, if you have to wait for the group infront, at least get to watch the group behind hit to the green you've just played.

In my opinion we spend too much time walking from green to tee in a round and it affects the continuity of play. Obviously every situation is going to be unique but I personally feel a long walk is only warranted to avoid a forced carry. If there is a spectacular hole further on I believe a really top architect can find a solution to incorporate it into the routing without the long walk.

In Masters of the Links it was interesting to read George C Thomas suggested using par threes as "connecting" holes. Maybe modern day designers see the one shotters as signature hole opportunities
and place them elsewhere, whereas the Master Architect used them to fill gaps and then worked harder on them to make them interesting holes if he had to.


TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2001, 03:29:00 PM »
Ran:

You mentioned Ross as an example of an architect who created very close green to tee walks. There very well may be another interesting reason why and how this happened. It may have been an incidental result of his obvious penchant for a high tee/valley/high green site routing style! In other words Ross was the opposite throughout his career of a ridge-running router. His routing style was to basically go perpendicular to the ridges from peaks to valleys to peaks or high to low to high. I talked to Ron Prichard about this apparent Ross style and he did say it appeared so!

Something like that would be interesting to analyze but if you look at a golf course like Seminole, and frankly so many of his others, they seem to be that way and possibly for that reason!

Why would he have done that though? One of my personal speculations is he got into the habit of doing that from topo routing (possibly a result of a limited time on site high production designer)! Basically he was looking for that routing style and he got in the habit of identifying high green sites or high tee sites and then just counting up and down the topo elevation lines!

The interesting and enduring result of this style (if it was one) is that it makes approach shots play longer than their actual yardage and also makes the course play longer than its actual total card yardage!


moth

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2001, 03:34:00 PM »
Its definately a safety issue. Liability for accidents is probably the no.1 concern for GCA's today . Less lawsuits = better golf courses.


moth

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2001, 03:35:00 PM »
Its definately a safety issue. Liability for accidents is probably the no.1 concern for GCA's today . Less lawsuits = better golf courses.


TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2001, 04:34:00 PM »
Long green to tee walks post WW2 are due to safety issues and less lawsuits? Jesus, I sure hope you're joking. Have none of these post WW2 designers heard of the concept of "triangulation"? If not that's sure depressing! I haven't heard of a single lawsuit due to short green to tee walks on a pre-WW2 course. If you have please tell me about it.

Ran Morrissett

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Brett,

What is the minimum distance that you would place the back tee from a green at a limited play private club? 30-40 yards? I can understand that but I'm talking about several 125-150 yards walks, which I just rarely if ever see on a Ross course.

Ross had a routing secret that he didn't share, I believe  

For instance, I understand that that Fazio's very private (and very good apparently) Sand Ridge suffers from several long green to tee walks. Same at Cherokee Plantation which gets less than 20 players a day.

How can these routings/courses be considered a success (unless you don't care a lick about walking)? I don't get it.


bm

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2001, 06:00:00 PM »
Tom,

Pretty hard to sue the pre-WW2 designers as most are dead, however I am sure that more than a few clubs would have been sued for this reason. Perhaps not if they are private clubs where members are more careful about when to approach the green on known problem holes.

A post WW2 designer putting tees too close to greens could certainly be subject to a lawsuit if someone got hit by an errant shot (too close determined by who??..there are a few publications recommending minimum distances). Anything within 30 yards or so would be considered too close IMO. I am sure there would be a few precedents on this althought I dont know of any personally.

Perhaps you can fill me in on the triangulation theory as I feel a bit dense not knowing what you are talking about!


Bill_McBride

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2001, 06:13:00 PM »
Pacific Dunes is generally okay with short walks from green to tee, but the hike from #11 to #12 is lengthy and convoluted. I think it has to do with the back tee at #5, which will give you some idea how inventive the routing is there!
  By contrast, our greens crew just built wooden steps up from the back right corner of the 4th green at Pensacola CC (approx 1920 Ross look-alike) up to the recently elevated 5th tee.  I walked it off - the back corner of the green is 30 feet from the bottom of the steps!   Not sure we'll ever see this again.  By the way, it's usually a good idea to keep an eye from the 5th tee on incoming shots at #4, which plays 400-440 yards into the prevailing wind.  Lots of long irons and fairway woods which occasionally wander right.

Doug Wright

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2001, 06:50:00 PM »
TYEPaul as usual I think you've got it re Ross-he positioned the greens on the high ground and said "Hey, while I'm at it let's locate this tee right up here too." The Ross I've seen sure fits that mold,  incluiding the one I'm most familiar with--Wellshire in Denver, which he did via topos and never visted.

Another thing to look for as I venture forth to tackle Ross's Wilmington Municipal in the morning...

Doug

Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2001, 02:17:00 AM »
Brett:

"Triangulation" is just a simple routing technique to get the direction of golf holes angled away from basic side to side parallelism--something that most of the old architects tried to avoid (side to side parallelism) with their routings if at all possible--and that was a simple method of doing it. Obviously if the particular site was extremely limited it wasn't possible or was less so.

But if you think of a triangle, you can see that routing this way was subjecting the site to a certain loss of land for golf but if you narrowed the green to tee walks it would be less so (the top or point of the triangle as opposed to the base). Obviously this must have been done more for safety than variety or something like "boxing the compass".

Close green to tee proximity can be tricky business, I realize, but a good architect can keep things close if he's logical and realistic, in my opinion. In other words, this can be done really well if the next hole is going in a particular direction. If the next hole is coming back anywhere near opposite the direction from the last hole, then you have a bigger problem, although this is the situation to get into some clever "triangulation".

I'm not denying the concern for liability issues at all---it's a very real one and certainly today and is definitely a large function of the particular use of the course (50,000 rounds would be handled differently than 15,000 rounds). I've actually done a considerable amount of research on the liabiliy of golfers (or others) getting hit by golf balls and it's an interesting one in the overall logic of the law as it applies to safety (or lack of it) on golf courses.

In any case some people get overly concerned about safety issues from time to time in my opinion only because they focus only on proximity issues and sometimes forget to consider what is likely to happen or not on a particular hole or given particular  situations. Gil Hanse for instance melded green to chipping area into next tee very close on three holes at Applebrook. On two of those holes the next tee is behind the green where balls are much less likely to be traveling quickly. This is far safer than two tight side by side fairways with LZs in the same basic area.

As an example of how basic proximity alone scares people, we have two tee boxes at GMGC that almost connect but the holes go in 180 degree opposite directions. The tees are so close that golfers will wait for the other hole to tee off simply because of noise and proximity.

We were looking to pick up yardage on both holes so I recommended in a total membership meeting to simply put the back tee marker on the front of the tees of the opposite hole. This costs absolutely nothing and would pick up about 90 total yards. Well about twenty people jumped up together and said: "What are you crazy, people will be killed!!" But I said golfers on both these tees wait for alternate tee off now and have since the beginning of this club and is it reasonable to expect that although balls will be coming in opposite directions that golfers will really stand within about 30-90 yards of each other in plain view and fire golf balls directly at each other. That's totally obvious so they all simultaneously said, "Oh yeah" and sat down.

Anyway, liability issues are very real but situations are more important to analyze than just proximity, in my opinion.  


BY

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2001, 02:50:00 AM »
One word - Safety!

It has nothing to do with having 18 separate, spectacular holes.


BillV

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2001, 03:36:00 AM »
HTe answer is likely Applebrook.  I can think of 3 instances where you can putt from the next tee back onto the previous green due to "meld".

Scott_Burroughs

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2001, 03:41:00 AM »
LuLu has the shortest "meld" I've ever seen, between #5 green and #6 back tee.  Just a couple yards separate the green from the teeing area.

BillV

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2001, 03:55:00 AM »
Scotty

You haven't seen 2-3, 6-7, 13-14 Applebrook.


Lou_Duran

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2001, 05:24:00 AM »
Three factors are probably driving this phenomenum: 1) consumer demand, 2) safety, 3) elasticity (flexibility to lengthen the course by adding back tees in response to ball and equipment "improvements").  With 65%+ of total rounds being "carted" (90%+ in some parts of the country), proximity of tees to greens is not a major concern.  Cart rentals generally offer substantial profit margins, easily overcoming higher land, construction, and maintenance costs.  Today's golfer also has higher expectations, and the architect is under more pressure to design 18 strong, diverse holes.

Most architects today would state that safety and liability are very important condiderations in their designs.  While the ASGCA may not have "official" printed standards, I understand that there are widely accepted "rules-of-thumb" which deal with fairway widths and buffers on parallel holes, distances from property lines to improvements (such as houses), and location of tees relative to the preceeding greens and lines of play.  A course built before safety and liability became so topical can probably get away with an "innocent landowner" defense.  One built since the 1970s would have a hard time making that case.

Finally, Dr. MacKenzie recomnended building tees somewhat forward from the preceeding green to allow future lengthening of the course as needed.  I have seen some references in the literature to modern architects who intentionally build flexibility into their designs as they acknowledge that golfers will continue to hit the ball further and further.


Ran Morrissett

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2001, 05:36:00 AM »
How short are the walks from green to tee at Easthampton?

Austin Golf Club?

Friars Head?


ForkaB

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2001, 06:29:00 AM »
Friar's Head is very good in this area on the flat bit, but less so when it gets into the terminal moraine bit, which is understadnable, given the topography.

I fully support the nominations for Applebrook as 1st in its class for this category.

I think that Stevinson Ranch is pretty good too from my one visit there (if you discount the longish walk to the 1st tee).  Can anybody our therecon firm or refute this impression?


THuckaby2

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
Chalk up another vote for Applebrook - very well done in this respect.

Stevinson Ranch is indeed pretty good re this also, Rich - there are some longish walks and the hike around the clubhouse from 9 to 10 is a big one, but beyond that there's nothing too bad.  It's a fine walking course indeed.

So few modern ones here in CA are... thus we do treasure these.

TH


Anthony_Nysse

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Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
Ran,
 Having interned at Friar's Head, seen East Hampton and hearing my roomate speak about Austin(He interned there) they all promoste walking and therefore almost all the walks in between holes are very short to promote this.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL