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Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« on: November 06, 2001, 07:12:00 AM »
A. Complaints stated on Golf Club Atlas.com?

B. Complaints from other members?

C. Complaints from other players?

In the past 30 days they have admitted Jack Nicklaus as a member(formerly outspoken on previous changes), had Mark O'Meara and Tiger up to play a round and report on the "updated" layout in Golf World and had Tom Fazio join the Golf Channel in a well prepared documentary/talk show on how Augusta has always undergone changes.
Has Hootie hired a PR firm and why?
I say it is GolfClubAtlas.com

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2001, 07:56:00 AM »
Lynn,

I have no special insight into what motivates Augusta National to engage in a PR campaign to defend all the money they are spending to lengthen the course.

Whether or not GCA is having any influence on such matters, let's just hope our discussion becomes even more what people want to follow.

Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2001, 12:57:00 AM »
It's almost undeniable that Golfclubatlas is the primary reason Hootie is looking over his shoulder. Since there are only 10-15 of us I can't imagine where my invitation is from Hootie to review the course and the changes.

But it got me thinking about the changes made and the particular set-ups done to any course prior to a major championship. Included would be the Masters, U.S. Opens, PGAs, British Opens. It seems there is always something controversial about the changes, preparations, set-ups. I was just trying to think what the least controversial one may have been and the best received one post tournament by the Tour Players  themselves.

Was it Pinehurst 1999?


redanman

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2001, 03:15:00 AM »
Originally admirable golf course that ?NLE and is replaced by Frankensteinian joke needs PR for over-inflated tone-a-mint with misguided intentions?    Stay tuned.....


Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2001, 03:24:00 AM »
I think Cadillac and The Traveler's are responsible. They're tired of only one commercial break per hour. With longer walks between shots, they can squeeze in some more adverts.
"chief sherpa"

ForkaB

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2001, 03:34:00 AM »
Tom

I just got finished unpacking from my trip back east a couple of weeks ago, and, lo and behold, I found Hootie's invitation to you at the bottom of my changing bag.  I must have picked it up at your house by mistake--with all the green on the envelope I thought it was my National Car rental agreement.

Anyway, having read the letter (just to check for possible terrorist contamination) it says, in effect, that he would be glad to meet you (or any other GCA participant who has written over 10,000 posts on the webstite) to disucss ANGC's present and FUTURE changes.

It seems. in fact that they DO have a Master Plan, and that plan includes, among other things:

1.  The adding of Fireball Roberts-type banking to all greens (a la the current 16th), and:
2.  The installation of "anti-turbo-boost" features on most fairways.

In terms of the latter project, Hootie is most interested in the ideas of Rees Jones, who has apparently recently proposed containment mounds running perpendicular to the fairways at about the 280-300 mark on several holes (e.g. 13, 15).

Finally, in the letter Hootie acknowledges the contribution of GCA to his deliberations, and singles out you and your historical work on Gulph Mills as giving them the confidence to hire a new "doctor" every few years for their course.

His only request is that, when you do visit, you do not use the word "Stymie" in the presence of older members.

Yours Faithfully

Rich


Tommy_Naccarato

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2001, 04:41:00 AM »
Any golf architecture loving afficianado who can validate ANY change to this course is not a golf architecture loving afficianado.

But then again, there is no such thing as "Classic" correct?

The game is in serious trouble my friends. We now have the Fazio organization to thank for it.

Plain and simply, they are leaving their egotistical mark. Is Hendersonville, NC a big enough town to handle such an ego?


George_Williams

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2001, 04:52:00 AM »
TE Paul-

Re criticism, or lack thereof of Pinehurst #2 for '99 Open, I did not hear any from the Tour players publicly- probably because it was Pinehurst.  However, it was interesting that I was riding back to the hotel on the shuttle bus w/ Steve Pate and asked him what he thought of the course and he said "Not bad for a 7000 yard miniature golf course!"


BillV

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2001, 05:08:00 AM »
George Williams and others...

Any argument with the postulation that the only thing wrong with Pinehurst #2 is the PennG2® greens that have by necessity speeds over the top?

The work Rees did there was pretty damn good and is to be applauded.  He left his mark absolutely nowhere.


TEPaul

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2001, 06:02:00 AM »
Rich:

Thanks for telling me about my invitation from Hootie to review the new Master's changes. I tell you what, you keep it and use it if you want to, I'm not interested.

He is one of those southern gentleman, though, isn't he? I better at least write him and thank him anyway. Since you have my  invitation and I don't, would you mind telling me what his real name is--I don't think it would be very polite if I addressed him as just Hootie. I seem to recall his name is Hootipher A.B. Johnson VII. If I'm right about that you don't need to respond, but if I'm wrong just let me know.


TBJ

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2001, 06:37:00 AM »
Mr. Naccarato

I don't understand what you mean by, "Any golf architecture loving afficiando who can validate ANY change to this course is not a golf architecture loving afficiando."
Do you mean that we should still have sheep mowing the fairways and irrigation by the good Lord.  "  Does this mean the changes made by Jones and Nicklaus are also to be derided?  Should the club revert to the pre-1980 bermuda greens?  Should all of the trees and vegetation which has grown over the years be trimmed back to the early 30's feel?  Should the work done to control the flooding of Rae's Creek be undone?  Should the USGA construction of the greens be damned and push-up grens restored?  Please enlighten me.


Mike_Cirba

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2001, 06:50:00 AM »
TBJ,

Not wanting to speak for Tommy, I'll be happy to share my opinions (answers) to your questions.

- No (this never was the case at ANGC)

- Most changes Yes, with the possible exception of 16

- Yes

- Yes

- Flood control is not an design or playability issue, but perhaps the damming of Rae's Creek in the first place caused some contribution to the problem?

- A little late for that now.


TBJ

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2001, 07:24:00 PM »
Mr. Cirba

Thanks for answering.  My initial question about mowing with sheep and irrigating by rain is to make a point.  Golf course maintance practices have improved 1000 fold since Augusta National was constucted.  Mowing and irrigation technology have changed the way the course was played in the 30's as much as anything.  As with all clubs from that era, there was no way to mow the greens under 1/8 of an inch or the fairways at 1/2 of an inch or to irrigate the turf so that perfect playing surfaces can be had.  This has changed the way the course has played tremendously.  Any one who thinks differently is kidding themself.

Secondly, if indeed ANY changes are to be dismissed, why the focus on Fazio?  Jones and Nicklaus have made a myriad of changed to Augusta over their terms of service.  Why no comment?  Also, I am not sure if anyone realizes how much input the Augusta membership has in directing this work.  I would think they leave the work to the Fazio group but surely nothing would occur without the membership driving the process.  Why no comment?

Thirdly, reverting to the pre-1980's greens (turf-type/growing medium/irrigation sysytem)
denies the superintendent the ability to maintain the greens to todays standards.  There certainly are bermuda varities today (Tif eagle/Champion) which can be maintained at bent speeds, but not the variety of 1979.

Fourth, removing all material planted after the initial construction and trimming all original material back to the early 30's look denies the fact that as plants mature they grow.  Courses evolve from day one to year 70 in a multitiude of ways.  It is impossible to limit this growth and evolution.

Fifth, I would ceretainly say that flood control is very much a design and playability issue.  Having greens, bunkers, and/or fairways wash out every few years seems a bit drastic in order 'not to change'.

Sixth, reverting back to push up greens is a bit late, but again would deny the superintendent the ability to maintain the greens to todays standards.

So my question is, again, if ALL changes are bad - what would you and Mr. Nacarrato do?  Let the maintenance go and approximate 1930's conditioning?  Leave the course be and have 270 be a winning score for a major championship?  I simply must not understand.


Ed_Baker

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2001, 07:36:00 PM »
TBJ:

Respectfully sir,who cares what the winning score is?
Leave the goddamn golf course alone and let the boys play!


Tommy_Naccarato

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2001, 08:01:00 AM »
TBJ,
Being the PURIST that I am...ABSOLUTELY! (Well, maybe to some extent) Also, I should probably disqualify myself from opinion since I have never been there. However, here are some observations from afar, addressing your questions.

Sheep mowing fairways......Well, judging from the recent decisions of defending par, I'm sure they have a lot of other ideas on how those sheep could be put to better use  then clipping grass.

Did sheep actually at one time mow the fairways at Augusta? Somehow I don't see Clifford Roberts allowing that.

While some really enjoy the RTJ 16th and feel it is a much better hole then the original, I still like the balance of having an ultra short one-shotter that the course once offered. While in the past most have disagreed with me on this, I still stand in my opinion of it.

Nicklaus's (Cupp's) work on the the 13th (The addition of the swale) is not what I would call a great addition either. So much so that Jack didn't even know about it until Tom Weiskopf confronted him about it on its debut. The orignal backing bunkers seemed to be more natural looking and they didn't have that Oval Boy Sr. look. (RTJ)

While most will maintain that Augusta's bent greens are just phenominal, I can also say that given the ORIGINAL contours (Which have changed on some holes) that they would seem to fit the characteristics of properly maintained putting surface such as Bermuda. Now I'm not a grass man, and this may incite the pro-bent crowd, but who cares! They changed it and it will never be bermuda ever again.

It seems as some of the famed Loblolly's are dying. I was told by someone in the know that when a Loblolly starts to "ball" at it's top that it is dying. They also said it is more then likely the result of the surrounding area being over-watered. So, since I value this persons opinion, I'll just maintain my opinion that nature--both Mother and Human is taking care of that area.  Of course we have Mr. Fazio introducing other varieties of pines to the area with the recent forestation projects to toughen the golf course. this again will prove a point that "Framing is everything" Especially when you didn't originally design it.

Now I could be wrong about this, but when it was a creek and it wasn't feeding any ponds and it wasn't damned there never seemed to be a problem with flooding. I mean, the area had been a creek for many years before it was a golf course or a nursery. You don't think making ponds (By damning) on 15 and 16 had anything to do with this flooding later on? Just a thought.

How many great contours were lost at ANGC as a result of making them USGA Spec? (This is a question)

And in ending, I think I would rather take the opinion of what the course should play like from Dr. Alister Mackenzie then someone named "TBJ."


Tommy_Naccarato

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2001, 08:06:00 AM »
Ed,
Thank you for saying it all.

TBJ, Yes, without doubt the changes that RTJ and Nicklaus made should be a focal point, and before the recent changes they were the topic of discussions many times. However, what is going on now is a crime to the fullest extent by indivudals wanting to leave their mark for prely egotistical reasons.

It used to be the club didn't respond to inquiries of what holes were being changed. Now they use it as a publicity event.


TBJ

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
Mr. Nacarrato

Please read what I write - don't infer.  I am not stating how I feel Augusta National should play.  I am commenting on the fact that had no changes been made to Augusta it WOULD NOT play the same as it did during the first Masters due to changes in agronomic practices in the past seventy years.  Nor with the improvements in equipment does it play the same as Mr. Jones and Dr. Mackenzie intended.  To me this cannot be denied. So what do you do?  Your answer to everything is let it be.  That is fine and I respect your opinion (of which you certainly don't seem to of mine).  But realistically many changes have been made to improve playing conditions and many changes have been made to relate the current technology to the intended play of the course.  Can you tell me that Dr. Mackenzie wanted players attaking the 15th with wedges, the 18th with sandwedges?  I have sat and read many of yours and your fellow enthusiasts posts over the past few months and REALITY and FACT take a backseat to uninformed opinion.  You write that for Mr. Fazio this is an ego trip.  How in the hell can you say that?  I am sure Mr. Fazio didn't knock on the gates of Augusta with a plan in hand.  The membership drives the changes and that is my point.  You would rather focus your attack on an individual and not face the reality of the situaution.  Do you know Mr. Fazio?  Have you met with him?  How can you comment on his motives from reading his book or from articles written?  I am sure it is simple.  You take statements made and context them however you wish.  I don't know Mr. Fazio, but I sure am sure he and his designers love the game of and work hard at what they do.  I know this is going in one ear and out the other, but read what I write and attempt to understand.  And don't preach to me about being such a PURIST unless you play with a wicker shaft and a gutta percha!


Mike_Cirba

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
TBJ,

I'll be happy to answer you questions with my opinions.  

You mentioned maintenance practices over the years and it's true that ANGC has now become perhaps the world's largest arboretum and stunning display of man's control of organic plant material.  The dollars involved to do so are impressive, I'm sure.

With less sophisticated irrigation in the past, I would only assume that the course played very firm and fast.  We know that ANGC always had very little rough and wide fairways to accommodate all players (consistent with Mackenzie's philosophy), yet the green orientation always made the course strategic.

The current practice of growing rough, planting trees, and narrowing fairways is diametrically opposed to the original philosophy, even if the course can be given a better haircut along the fairways and greens than in years past.  I've even heard rumors of over-watering landing areas in an effort to control distance.  

So yes, maintenance is more controlled, but is it better?

The focus on Fazio is simply because he is the man on the job at the moment.  I've read tons of criticisms here concerning previous changes by Jones, Nicklaus, and others, so please don't feel that Mr. Fazio is being singled-out for changes to Mackenzie's design.  That cat's been out of the bag for many years now.  

There may be additional focus on Tom Fazio simply because he seems to be the guy that a lot of classic courses are going to for recreations/revisions/restorations/modernizations or whatever euphemism you prefer.  I'm sure he's honored to take work from these clubs.  

However, his own personal philosophy, expressed in writing in his own book, seems to feature a curious disdain for classic courses and architecture in general.  His work at classic courses could hardly be called a sympathetic restoration, by any measure.  

And you're correct...the membership DOES drive the process, but don't let the architect off that easy!  I know other architects who've flat out refused to work on or significantly revise certain courses because they didn't want to tamper with something really good or classic.  

That doesn't seem to happen in this case, however.  Mr. Fazio doesn't seem to see any courses out there that couldn't be improved with his creative hand.

As far as grass types, I'm not sure why we're arguing about that.  Personally, I prefer Bermuda in hot climates, and I would think the original green contours aren't meant for the silly speeds that are used to "defend par" in the Masters.  13 or 14 on the stimp is goofy golf, and the bent grass greens need to live on intensive care to survive the weather.  Once again, it's a case of the Augusta Syndrome creating a tough image for other courses in the south whose members now also want bent grass.

As far as growth of trees and vegetation, is not part of the maintenance of any course the job of controlling that growth to acceptable levels consistent with the architectural intent of the golf course?

Is planting more trees in playing areas consistent with that approach?

I can't argue against "flood control" and still be considered a reasonably sane individual, but I'll ask once again...do you think that the damming of Rae's Creek has anything to do with the water control problem??

Is 270 so awful as a winning score?  If technology continues unabated, perhaps we'll be talking about 260 in ten years.

My friend, the problem isn't the golf course.  The problem is that the distances have increased dramatically in recent years and no one has taken the lead in providing an answer.  

So yes...we can make the course 8,000 yards, but it won't be a better course or more exciting tournament.  

Tom Fazio seems to be under the impression that he is providing the antidote to a sick patient.  The problem is, the wrong problem is being addressed, and all the stopgap distance measures in the world added to all the courses in the world will not make for a better game, more interesting or exciting golf, or anything remotely beneficial.

It will only add $$$ and time to a game that is already to expensive and takes too long.


Brian B

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2001, 11:52:00 AM »
This complaining about changes to Augusta is getting old. There have been so many changes made to the course that I think everyone would now agree that it's not the same course that the good Dr. designed.

The fact of the matter is Augusta will never be restored to anything close to its original form and it's the members money to spend on their course however they choose. Those of us who are not fortunate enough to be able to play Augusta every day can complain as much as we want. The opinions of people posting to this site may be heard but they will have absolutely have no impact on the descions made at Augusta.

I am as much of a fan of classic design as anyone else hear but I think it will be much more enjoyable watching the players hit driver/three iron into thirteen as opposed to three wood/six iron. A little more risky don't you think and probably closer to what the Dr. had in mind.

The Masters is the only major to hold the tournament at the same venue every year and Augusta inevitably is going to make changes to the course to keep the tournamnet interesting to the players and the viewers.

So we can have all the whine and cheese parties we want, the members of Augusta have the money and the control to do as they wish to their golf course.


Mike_Cirba

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2001, 11:59:00 AM »
Brian B,

You're absolutely correct.  The members of ANGC can do whatever they choose to.  

What happens at ANGC happens in a vacuum, and has absolutely no impact on other courses, other expectations, or the game in general.

It's all good.

The course is improving with every change.

The maintenance conditions are a model....nay, an avatar, of what the rest of the world should be striving for.

490 yard par fours are excellent and exemplary of creative architecture that tests the cream of the crop.

Why offer strategic options and a course modelled anachronistically after some antique in Scotland when we can have Bermuda rough impinging narrow fairways and plant lots and lots of evergreens to bolten down those playing corridors?

The play should be much more exciting with birdies and eagles as rare as an unbloomed Azalea bush behind 13.  Why, we might start to approach US Open standards of play!

I'm thinking a weather controlled dome might complete the picture.  


T_MacWood

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2001, 12:51:00 PM »
TBJ
The overly simplistic all or nothing attitude promoted by certain golf designers is insulting. Is it meant to be clever? If I am interested in preserving an ancient building, does that mean I also have to take crap by the curb and ride a donkey? And then there is the always popular 'golf courses are living and growing and evolving, you can't stop it, it is unrealistic if you think you can preserve these courses, simply because they change'. Again overly simplistic, I don't think that Mother Nature is at the controlls of that bulldozer. Of course they change and equipment changes, does that mean Joe Blow can have carte blanche to perform whatever sick scheme he conjures up? And yes Jones, Nicklaus, Cobb, Cupp, Roberts, Fazio etc. are all equally involved. Fazio is only in focus because he is the most recent -- it does seem Fazio's plans seem particularly evasive and not exactly in tune with original and historical design intent. That and he has not hidden his disdain for the past -- that doesn't sit well with many of us who care about the great works of golf architecture.

Obviously you can not freeze these courses in time, but they can be protected and preserved. You can appreciate the past without turning the clock back. Do you believe it is impossible to preserve and/or restore a design while at the same time utilizing modern maintenance practices? If you don't appreciate the past, that's fine too, everyone has diffferent tastes.

Brian B
One of the reasons there have been so many courses have been butchered over the years is because no one has objected. Maybe ANGC is a goner, but who's to say these complaints might to prevent another course from a similar fait. And it's no crime if you are more concerned with protecting par and the interity of The Masters, than you are for golf course design, I'd say you are probably in the majority. But I disagree with your view.


AC

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2001, 12:55:00 PM »
How many of you have played ANGC or visited the course since it reopened?

Tommy_Naccarato

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »
TBJ,
If the old emplements of days gone past were still being affordably made, I would undoubtedly enjoy playing those fine tools, but even then, I may overstate a purity that is close to impossible in this day. If it was the only type of equipment availble, I would surely play it no matter how hard it was to hit. Isn't this where the challenge is supposed to come from?

As I stated before, I have never been to the state of Georgia let alone Augusta National, but from a standpoint which Mike Cirba so proficiently touches, Augusta National and all of its practices influence the game further and further to the point which it affects all of the game, why shouldn't one be allowed to voice opinion? After all, how many haven't been to Washington DC, actually don't personally know a candidate and are allowed to vote for the leader of their country?

From your posts, I'm taking it that you may be a superintendent, and if so, how do you feel to be constantly bombarded with practices by an unknowing membership or public that demands Augusta-like conditions?

This last weekend I played a course with the honorable Gib Papazian. We actually played  a few holes with the head professional/DOG that told us on the very intersting first green of the effort to keep their greens of this brand new course Penncross 4. "Anything else and the Superintendent would be looking for a new job" was what he told us. "Our superintendent and his crew walk every inch of putting surface, all eighteen holes, every morning, to make sure that poa is extracted immediately."

To me if that isn't a practice set forth by ANGC, then where did he get it? I think you could figure out just how much that costs that paticular club to do that. And we are talking a golf course on an extremely severe site in a climate that is very susceptable to Poa.


Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »
Mike --

I completely agree -- within 20, or at most 30, years, AN will finally become what Alister Mackenzie had always dreamed it would be. The par 4s will all be just under 500 yards, the fairways will be excessivly watered so most drives embed, bunkers will be constructed in front of each green so a ball cannot run onto the putting surface even if it does managed to land on a spot of turf that isn't waterlogged, and the greens will hold nothing but lob wedges. To further protect par, the putting surfaces will be cut to 1/100th of an inch, stimp at 17 or 18 and be buffed with a floor polisher in between groups.

You know, those pampered pros will probably whine about it, too.

Rick

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2001, 02:53:00 PM »
TBJ,

I sense that some object to changes which were not in keeping with the design integrity of the original course/designer.

Deviation from these principles would appear to be the biggest concern.

When a dozen or so individuals place their ideas or fingerprints on the course rather than extending the ideas or fingerprints of the original designer/s, one has to question whether the changes are positive or negative.

The narrowing of fairways, growing of rough and planting of trees to further narrow the holes must be questioned in the context of the original design principles, irrespective of the resident architect at the time.

Almost every course in the world has had holes lengthened, but there needs to be an attempt to preserve, not change the shot values on great courses when adding length.

You raise some interesting issues.

Should the greens have been converted from Bermuda ?

Did this change eliminate a myriad of great cup locations and the play of the holes ?

Should the original style of the bunkers been maintained, rather than changed, irrespective of the changes in location of some of the bunkers ?

Now all of these questions are just that, questions, and while the answers won't change anything, perhaps they will cause people to give additional, prudent thought before making changes to their golf course.