Defend or deny the following proposition:

[George Pazin]

In the spirit of my 11th grade American History teacher, I posit the following statement:

Defend or deny: It is possible to render an opinion on a golf course based on photos or diagrams, without having seen the course in person.

I eagerly await your essays. You may commence typing now!

[TEPaul]

George:

I'm not going to defend or deny that proposition but I am going to REMAND the proposition back to you for a venue change to one of the Austin G.C. threads and I'm staying over here while all hell breaks loose over there.

You can nominate me for the Bench anytime you want to-I'll accept.

[Ran Morrissett]

It is always easy to render an opinion regarding any golf course.

It is much harder for that opinion to carry any significance or for it to matter to anyone other than the person who issued it.

[Gib_Papazian]

George,

"Typing" is something a secretary does.

We compose prose.

[JimH]

Someone once wrote the following statement, or something close to it, in this discussion group:

"I just saw photos of ____________ Golf Course, and I have to say it looks like the sort of course that is total _______."  

Therefore because your assertion only asks whether it is possible to render an opinion, the statement is defended, absolutely.  This is only the type of response of a smart-alecky 11th grader though.  

The more important issue raised in your question is whether one should be able to render an opinion of a golf course based only on photos or diagrams, such that anyone else should either care about the opinion or assign any objective validity to it.  

To this I answer: of course.  Life is full of ambiguity and we moreover base all kinds of impressions and opinions we have on less than complete information.  We would be paralyzed into silence if we were not allowed to express ourselves in light of this reality.  

I was not at the US Supreme Court hearing today. But I have at my disposal means to come to an opinion of what happened.  Sources available to me are many and varied.  I could listen or watch interpretive news reports; I could download and read a transcript;  I could listen to the audio tape.  If I wanted to be more thorough I could listen to the audio tape while reading the transcript, and so on.  

At the end of this process I'd have an opinion I'd share with others.  No doubt someone could come along and say, "yes but how can you have a valid opinion, you weren't actually at the hearing today in person?" but any reasonable person would be hard-pressed  to not scoff at such a transparent reductio ad absurdum.  

Opinions about golf courses based on photos or diagrams can certainly be given, as long as everyone realises their validity will always be open to scrutiny and should be subject to careful evaluation and assessment.  

Take the following example to illustrate the absurdity of considering as more valid the opinions of someone who has seen a golf course over a person who has only studied it and come to their opinion based on writings, pictures, or diagrams.  Ignorant golf tourist X wrangles a tee time at Royal County Down and plays 18 holes.  "I hated the course," he says, "very monotonous holes with not much to say for themselves compared to the TPC in Florida I play most of my golf at." A second golfer has never played Royal County Down but has read a lot about it and seen many photographs.  His impression is that it is probably one of the greatest golf courses in the world. He can give many reasons why it is great, and he will do so, if asked.  

Would anyone argue that the opinion of the ignorant golf tourist has greater validity, in any objective sense, simply because he has been there?

 

[George Pazin]

Since Ran hinted at the crux of my essay, I will commence typing now - whoops, sorry Gib - I will begin to compose prose.

I believe it is fine to give one's opinion of a course based on photos or diagrams - it is up to the reader to evaluate the opinion and determine whether or not it's credible. I think it is a bit simplistic to say that anyone who has not played a course or, at least, seen it in person is not capable of rendering an opinion. This opinion may be re-evaluated after said golfer has had an opportunity to play the course - or it may not. It is simply an opinion and should be treated as such.

In reading the numerous postings on Rees Jones(which I find very entertaining), I am repeatedly struck by the notion that it seems neither side truly addresses the others questions. Similarly, in the case of the Austin thread, I find it interesting how quickly the adversaries get bogged down in mudslinging rhetoric, which I would paraphrase as "You are a C&C sycophant","You can't judge a course from photos", or "You are so unobservant as to miss the salient features of the photos", etc., etc.

I think the many authors of the golf literature many hold so dear would find it amusing that someone could claim you can tell nothing from a photo or a diagram. Why then did they write these books?

I guess I would summarize my opinion(& of course, it's just my opinion...) as it is okay to criticize base on photos & diagrams - it is up to the reader to consider the source.

[Craig_Rokke]

Yes......just look at the thread containing
70+ posts about Nantucket/Rees pictures.
Playing a course, however, allows for at least the most informed opinion.

[Mark_Fine]

Sure you can offer an opinion after reading about a course and seeing pictures.  But let me put that in perspective; how would you feel about a ranking of courses by a review panel all of whom had never seen or played the courses they were ranking?  They based all there rankings on what they read and pictures they found of the course.   Furthermore, pretend you are the developer of a new course and would like it reviewed for an article or a ranking of some kind and someone tells you, "just send me a few pictures to review".  Would you feel pretty good about it?

[APBernstein]

Personally, I don't think that anyone should publicly offer an opinion regarding a course that you have only seen in pictures.  Of course everyone is going to form some type of opinion about a course after seeing a photograph of it, I just don't think that opinion carries any weight whatsoever when spoken on this discussion group.

Whoever thinks that they can tell if a golf course is awesome or underwhelming (Austin GC) from just two pictures (and not very revealing ones at that) is a little too eager to imput his two cents...

Andrew

[Mike Erdmann]

Sorry Andrew, but I completely disagree.  While seeing pictures & the routing don't come close to seeing a course in person and playing it, it should by no means prevent someone from offering an opinion.  It would be nice if the reviewer would qualify their statements by saying they haven't played the course, but it shouldn't stop someone from offering an opinion.  

Take Tot Hill Farm, for example.  I haven't played the course, but from the photos I have seen, I feel it's entirely appropriate to comment on course.  Should my comments be given the same weight as someone who has played it?  Absolutely not!

[ForkaB]

I'm solidly with Andrew on this one.  I'm just as interested in hearing someone's comments on a course they've never seen or played as I am about reading a review of a restaurant from someone who has never eaten in or been there.

[APBernstein]

Amen Rich!  Should I want to read an opinion from someone who simply stared at a picture of the filet mignon...?  Of course not - Why should it be any different in golf.

I could show you a picture of Pine Valley that would make it look like a terrible place to golf and I could show you a picture of Local Muni GC that makes it look like Merion - Pictures don't matter (or at least shouldn't)...

Andrew

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Having a broader and deeper data base allows one to make a more accurate assessment or analysis of almost anything, including golf courses.

You can always have an opinion based on pictures, but ask yourself, on a blind date arranged by a friend with a picture, or internet dates where pictures were posted,
how did the real thing stack up to the pictures ?  How do you gleen personality, intellect and heart from pictures ?

 

[APBernstein]

"I could show you a picture of Pine Valley that would make it look like a terrible place to golf and I could show you a picture of Local Muni GC that makes it look like Merion"

I accidently broke my golden rule of talking about golf: NEVER USE IT AS VERB!  So, minus the typo, this is how that sentence should read...

...I could show you a picture of Pine Valley that would make it look like a terrible place to PLAY golf and I could show you a picture of Local Muni GC that makes it look like Merion...

Andrew

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich:

You summed up my feelings pretty well.

My only qualification would be that if somebody wants to comment about a course without actually seeing it, that's fine as long as they make clear the limited basis (e.g., pictures) for their input.

[Bill_Coggins]

With the appropriate information (pictures and diagrams) one can make educated guesses at what is junk and what is not.

The "appropriate information" would not be several photos of the same hole.  One would need something like the course layout and contour (and surrounds) information.  These provide enough information to visualize the course and even validate some visualizations.  Clearly this is not perfect though.

I would also postulate that a single round on a course can be of as little use as photos and diagrams should you happen to play on an unusual day.

Now, if I have numerous photos of a single hole plus a yardage book for the course AND I am told that this is the best hole on the course (assuming it really is) - A judgement on the course is entirely reasonable if the hole shows no or limited strategy or character.  If however, there does appear to be promise in the hole, one cannot make a judgement for or against the course as a whole.

I rephrase/paraphrase the original question below:

Question: If one cannot make a judgement of a course based on pictures and diagrams, on what does a GCA base his/her enthusiasm for a course they have in the design phase?

[T_MacWood]

I strongly agree, you should not form an opinion on photographs, written word or hearsay. I certainly have opinions of courses that I have played or seen, but I keep them barried deep with my consciousness in a lockbox. If I have played numerous courses of a certain architect, I have the mental discipline to block those opinions out when playing a new course, I am an empty vessel.

And of the thousands pages I have read regarding golf courses and golf architecture, I expunge any refrences to courses I have never seen. I when I some how slip up, I too keep those thoughts in a seperate lockbox. In fact I refuse to read the profiles on this site, for fear I may form an opinion. I must confess there has been one or two occasions I have accidently stumbled upon a new course profile, but I certainly would never look at the photos. In fact if I could make a suggestion to Ran and John, please eliminate all the photos -- there are many that are not as disciplined as myself.

Many might ask how I decide what new courses I would like to play next without any opinions and frankly that is also a mystery to me. I have no idea where these thoughts come from in my subconscious. All I can tell you is that I have become a strong believer in reincarnation, I believe I was Jug McSpaden in a prior life.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Let me answer your question, with a question.

If you were talking to two knowledgeable individuals from this site about a golf course, and one fellow had only seen pictures and diagrams of the course, while the other had played it 50 times.  Whose opinion would you value more ??

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom, If only you could bring the discipline to your lavish drinking habits  

The best (non-sarcastic) quote is re: Lido. We all love/praise it and no one has played it.

[Mark_Fine]

This is one of those questions where there is no right or wrong answer.  Everyone makes some very valid points.  I think we all agree, however, that there is no substitute for actually seeing and playing the golf course and opinions must be weighted as such.

I remember going out to play Bandon Dunes for the first time.  Having seen all the "lush green photos", I have to say my expectations were not all that high.  I figured another "American style" links course, blah, blah,...  Not until playing it did I realize Bandon Dunes was a pretty darn good course.  

Tom Doak recently sent me a picture of Pacific Dunes and that alone got my blood flowing.  However, having walked the course, I already know just how good that place will be.  Sand Hills my get a run for its money with this one.  

[Ran Morrissett]

Mark,

You are not one given to over-praise/hype so I am shocked that you mention Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills in the same breath.

Cheers,

[Steve_Curry]

Folks, this isn't that difficult.  Yes you can form an opinion based on a photo and no it isn't as good as seeing it in person.  Let's not muddle the discussion with personal tastes.  Obviously there are those who see the pictures of C&C's Austin course and think, "wow simple but sofisticated" and then those that appreciate more sculpted land that think, "where's the beef".  But these tastes have nothing to do with the fact that all who saw the photos formed an opinion that was valid for them.  Now as far as closing your mind to the fact that your opinion may be maligned, to each his own but, it might be prudent to see if the oportunity arises.

Damn you Ran for stealing my idea about chiding everyone with regards to Lido.  

Steve

[Steve_Curry]

And another thing, I think we need to start a support group for those "On the Bottle" and addicted to photographic evidence.  I expect it will fill up quick so sign up now.  

Steve

[George Pazin]

All excellent points. Again, I think it is a bit simplistic to say that it is inappropriate to weigh in on a course based solely on photos/diagrams. I think I could probably dig up some evidence of an occassion or two when those dissenting above did just so - and I think that's fine. I go back to my prior statement, it is up to the reader to consider the source.

Patrick -

Very interesting analogies. Regarding your question of whose opinion I would value greater, it would depend on my view of the individuals. To cite a few examples, if any of the contributors to this site gave me an opinion based on photos versus a complete stranger give me an opinion based on actually playing the course 50 times, I would consider what each was saying & try to determine logically what makes more sense. Most likely, each opinion would have elements of the truth. I do seem to recall Scott Hoch being repeatedly ripped on this site for his various opinions and (I'm just guessing on this) he's probably played more golf on more courses than any 10 of us combined('cept maybe Tom Doak, Mark Fine and few others ).

One curious thing I noted from Tom D's Confidential Guide: there were a few courses where he mentioned that he did not play or even walk the course, he simply saw a few holes during a cursory look. The important thing was that he noted this, so it was a qualified opinion. It is up to the reader to determine the validity of the comments.

The restaurant analogy needs to be tightened up quite a bit. The ONLY way you can give YOUR opinion is indeed to sample the food, but there is nothing to say you cannot pass along others' comments regarding a certain restaurant. I would surmise that we all do this many times in our personal lives. Frequently when discussing movies with friends, for example, I cite others' opinions, but I always make sure to credit them and keep my own opinion separate.

My only point in bringing up this topic is that I find discussion re photos & diagrams very interesting & I hate to see it stifled with casual dismissals rather than addressing the specific issues. I know it's infinitely preferable to play the course, but I think you can still get interesting discussion from photos & diagrams.

P.S. I can't believe I didn't think of the Lido comments! I must be slipping.

[Mark_Fine]

Ran,
I will reserve final judgement on Pacific Dunes until I've played it.  I only walked the 11 holes that were completed this summer.  But I'm telling you, this is going to be one awesome golf course.  I know I'll get blasted for this by Tom Doak, but Ran, you or I could have built a 7 or more on this site.  I'll bet you lunch this one easily trumps Bandon Dunes when finished.
Mark