News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Paul Turner

East Hampton-Photos
« on: November 08, 2001, 02:01:00 PM »
Here are some photos of another new, ultra exclusive course on Long Island:


RobertWalker

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2001, 02:42:00 PM »
Any idea who made the pictures?

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2001, 02:43:00 PM »
It is nice to see low profile work again in the United States - Fowler would be pleased.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2001, 02:50:00 PM »
Clearly an improvement in the appearance of a more natural draping of the golf course upon the property in a more harmonious manner with what was given by nature.  Superior bunker construction-design. A little too slick of a professional photographer presentation of perfection in the greenery in the fairway and greens as a contrast with the golden native grasses for my taste.

But probably irrelavant to the golf loving public at any rate if it is "ultra exclusive".  Is that term considered a positive or negative description of the atmosphere of a venue back east?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2001, 03:03:00 PM »
I had to go answer the door for the pizza man!

What I wanted to finish saying is that seeing pictures of this course as well as the ones that I will soon post from Walton Heath reminds me of Tom Paul's In My Opinion piece entitled  "A Renaissance Movement in Golf Architecture."

For those who haven't read it, please check it out.

Almost a century after Fowler first stalked Walton Heath on a horse,  we are again returning to low profile, natural designs that are reflective of the property upon which they are built.

Cheers,


Paul Turner

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2001, 03:05:00 PM »
Robert

I scanned them from the Met Golfer magazine, the photographer is Larry C Lambrecht (I hope I'm not breaking any copyright laws!).

Ran

Those bunkers do remind me of Fowler's bunkers at The Berkshire (obviously without heather) that RT sent me and I posted a couple of months back.


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »
Love that fairway bunker. Where is the hole going?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Thomas_Armstrong

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2001, 11:10:00 PM »
 I may have had too much to drink, but does that bunker have a railing alongside the steps?

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2001, 04:36:00 AM »
You can tell it's "ultra," by the $1600.00 Smith and Hawken® bench in the foreground.
"chief sherpa"

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2001, 04:38:00 AM »
Paul, Agreed - I had the same connection with your photos from 45 days ago when I saw these.

TEPaul

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2001, 03:46:00 PM »
Man, it's just amazing how great looking the detail work at Easthampton really is! I've photographed the course (all of it) walked it a bunch of times (every time I've been to Easthampton actually) and played the course too and I sometimes forget how amazing that workmanship is---all of it! The low profile architecture, the detail work, the entire package--an entire naturally done and blended whole with everything to do with the indigenous site.

Geo. Tiska:

Is the left border on the hole in photo #3 part of the containment mounding you were telling me Coore and Crenshaw did to hide a maintenance road? If it is, it should serve as the posterboy for really good mounding compared to some of the other work we talk about and tend not to admire so much. Tell me if that's what you were talking about on "The Bridge" topic. I've got to know because if it is that just kills me---that says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Again, when I ask those questions and make those comparisons I'm not saying in the slighest that The Bridge might not play great or even that Easthampton plays better, worse or in between. All I'm saying is for anybody to just look at the difference in the natural bunkers, the detail work, the natural site blend from one course to the other. I'm not saying the Bridge isn't a nice looking course either but just look at the difference and it it's the natural look you like, which I happen to, just tell me that the difference isn't obvious. If somebody tells me the difference isn't obvious, I'm going to tell them right now they are blind to what really great looking natural golf architecture looks like!


Mike_Cirba

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
Is part of what we're talking about when we say "natural" really the difference between convex versus concave design?

Once again, I'll admit that I'm merely stating observations based on pictures, but I'll tell you what I've observed.

It seems to me that in most classic designs, the fairways and greens occupy the "high points" with the land naturally falling from those preferred areas.  

In much of modern design, whether through the use of mounding, shaping, or simply routing holes through the "valleys" and other low points, it appears that many of the courses are built up around the edges.  Usually, the tee occupies a high point, but the fairway sits in a concave valley, and the green often does the same.  

Then I look at a hole like 11 at Shinnecock which seems so easy to build, and wonder why so few holes of that quality are built today.  I look at the elegant simplicity of the green complexes of Garden City; mere extensions of the fairway and surrounding terrain really, and am perplexed why we get so ridiculously fussy in building some type of "green complex" with multiple tiers sitting among mounding and amoeba-shaped bunkers.  

Isn't this fact really the secret of Donald Ross and many others?  When we say that Ross found the "high spots" for tees and greens, aren't we also saying that he designed courses that were convex as opposed to concave?  Isn't this exactly why they are so exacting?  A less than perfect shot tends to drift further from the target, pure and simple.

I might be oversimplifying here, but when I look at the pictures of East Hampton, I see more of Garden City than Wade Hampton, to use a popular, well-regarded modern comparison.


Patrick_Mucci

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2001, 02:20:00 AM »
Do these pictures bear a closer resemblance to Galloway, or NGLA ?

TEPaul

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2001, 04:13:00 AM »
Paul Turner:

Thanks so much for posting some excellent photos of both Easthampton and The Bridge. They're great to look at and have generated some excellent discussion.

Pat:

These photos don't bear much of a resemblance to ether course you mentioned--these ones are extremely low profile and quite unique.

Also to just carry over a thought to you from the Bridge thread---just notice in these photographs how the architects created something where all the visible lines blend in naturally. See where the golf course blends in naturally with the lines of the base of the trees just like the lines on the tops of the trees blend in naturally on their own with the sky? Nothing chopped up  artifically here and the hand of man has been very well hidden.

Even, magic of all magic, photo #3 contains containment mounding!!! Oh my God, how aweful!! But can you see it? Can you see where it appears Coore and Crenshaw made it? I sure can't! That's what it's all about Pat!


BY

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2001, 05:27:00 AM »
I'm not trying to be a spoil sport here, but take out the golden fescue and change the filter a little and what do you have?

Something very similar to The Bridge.


TEPaul

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2001, 06:10:00 AM »
Jesus BY, you can't see the distinctions between those two courses? Not really even necessarily good or bad distinctions just differences--definitely distinctions!

I realize some people have accused you of being blind in the past and I certainly never thought that much about it one way or the other, but now I know you are!


Paul Turner

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Tom Paul

Thanks, I knew the photos would draw a somewhat heated debate!  Like Ran has stated above, these photos remind us of the low profile work on England's heathland courses; courses like Woodhall Spa and Walton Heath, I hope you can get to see them one day.


Tommy_Naccarato

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2001, 07:07:00 PM »
BY,
If that is in fact what you see, it is a good thing you remain anon so I don't get to critique your courses.

Gib_Papazian

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2001, 02:43:00 PM »
For those of you who have not been thee, the photos above are all from the back nine - which I'm told was a flat potato field.

Although the nines have completely different topography, it might be useful to get a look at what they did on the rolling terrain on the front side and how it flows with the back.

I recall thinking the waste area on the third hole was extremely clever in terms of visual balance - particularly because they were limited in the the width of most of the holes.

We did not get pictures out there of the front, but perhaps Tom Paul might post a few for our viewing pleasure?


Patrick_Mucci

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
TEPaul,

I guess, if you have a dead flat piece of property, you can be as low profile as you want.

How do you compare the 3rd photo at The Bridge with any of the photos at Easthampton?

Tell me, in the the three photos of The Bridge, other than the  containment mounding to hide the maintainance facility, where the holes AREN'T low profile.  Tell me what is high profile about each photo on terrain  with substantive elevation changes?

Where is the maintainance facility, underground ?


TEPaul

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2001, 03:11:00 AM »
Pat:

Refer to "The Bridge" thread for at least two answers, one about "low profile" vs The Bridge (not a low profile site).


T_MacWood

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2001, 05:01:00 AM »
Pat
Although I may get slapped down by the photo Nazis for using my trained eye and brain, I actually like the look of the third photo of the Bridge. Rees style seems to be integrated very naturally into terrain. It is the first two photos that seem to show the distinction. The regularity of the grading, the soft flowing machine made look in contrast to the humps, bumbs and irregularity found in nature.

Patrick_Mucci

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2001, 05:26:00 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I too like the look in the third photo.

But, I like the look in the second photo as well, and to me, it looks like the hole follows the land countour with the fairway being fairly level.

I would like people to tell me what's wrong with the second photo, from an architectual point of view, because, I don't see anything wrong.

Is it my eyes, or their bias ?


T_MacWood

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2001, 05:36:00 AM »
Pat
We all know your eyes are bias   and I'm sure your friend Rees appreciates it. There is a difference between level natural land and soft unnatural grading. Mother nature doesn't make land that regular and how do you seperate nature from architecture?

G_Tiska

East Hampton-Photos
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2001, 06:02:00 AM »
TE Paul,
What are feelings on how the frontside @ EH plays as compared to the backside?


I would also be interested in anybody's opinion who has played the the course

Thanks