TEPaul,
Sorry if I got a bit cranky there. On both of your posts, I think I know what you were driving at, and didn't get any negative or wrong impressions at all. When I mentioned the grand poohbah, I was really referring to the wide variety of conditions, both economic and regional (like Bent in the south) that some may forget if they ususally play in only one region of the country, and only in the south during the winter, for instance.
On your last post, I think we are driving at the same thing, as well. There are certainly a lot of classical ideas that are working their way back into architecture, and certainly a lot of non architects, like Geoff S. researching the whys and wherefores of "why not use them". Could any of those people put together a functioning golf couse without some professional help? Not likely. I saw your routing, and it was the best amateur routing I have seen - although I know you had some help from Gil, Bill and Ben. PS, I still think you worked too hard to save your 13th hole, the cows be dammed!
Many here do understand the concepts of design very well, I dare say, as well as even a few professional architects who either don't really love the game and/or have given up trying to improve themselves. No, I won't name names, but I'm not thinking of the big name guys GCA like to bash sometimes.
My posts are honest, and I hope the ones today conveyed a few things.
First, you can tell that I think that a better understanding of the technical issues that swirl inside our minds would help all figure out why modern courses look like modern courses! I usually leave it to you guys to debate the nitty gritty details of concept. Why? Not that I'm not interested, but I can try a concept for real once, and if it isn't great, I can improve it the next time, or put it on the shelf for a while until another situation comes up where it might be the right thing.
When I was a new kid at Killian and Nugent, I recall my first design attempt - I tried to get every neat concept into my very first hole. Doesn't work. Another thing Nugent told me - a golf hole usually really does one thing well, not several, and thats usually enough. It can challenge a hook or a fade, require accuracy or power, etc.
I will start a thread someday, and it will be called "mistakes amateurs make". The first is trying to put too much, or read too much into any given golf hole. The second is not realizing just how much room golf features really take up.....
A good , legitimate question is if we as a group (and we are not really a cohesive group) are too unwilling to take chances, based on the criticism we get. Nugent always said he did derivative holes about 14-15 out of the 18 and tried new ones on 3-4. That way, he was pretty well assured of a good course that people and owners would accept.
In telliing these stories, I hope you also get a sense of the respect I have for the mentoring of Ken and Dick. I find myself telling my employees these same Dick Nugent stories over the years, sounding as much like Dick as I sound like my own father when talking to my kids! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I guess.
Of course, the mentoring system prevalant in golf arnchitecture does breed slow change. And perhaps this is good. As in politics, and other fields, there is always someone selling something new, or the "good old days", and over time, most ideas are found wanting, and a small percentage will be found to be an advance forward.
I agree with Jim Engh and others who think the latest generations of golf courses will stand up as "great architecture" - no matter what the cost (shameless attempt to tie back into your original subject) and a percentage of these, at least as great as any other decade, will eventually be judged as great. Further, more of the broad middle spectrum of modern courses will certainly be judged as superior to the middle class courses of previous decades, in all likelihood.
As any historian knows, a place in history is best judged over a long period of time....We won't know where Clinton, or Bush will stand for a long, long time. Same with golf courses, but the law of averages, the feelings of nostalgia, which haven't attached themselves to new courses, and human nature almost guarantee I will be right on this one, IMHO.
Tom, what was your question again?
Jeff