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wsmorrison

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 08:58:53 AM »
When discussing Ross in Philadelphia, it seems ludicrous to discuss courses as far away as Scranton and others more than an hour away like Stonewall, French Creek, etc.  I mean in an hour you can be in New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland.  In my opinion, Philadelphia Ross includes Philadelphia and its suburbs.  If you want to talk Pennsylvania Ross, that's another matter.  As for the distribution of classic courses in the Philadelphia area among golf architects, doesn't Flynn's presence dominate like no other region in the country?  No wonder Ross was peeved about his lack of work in the area.

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 08:58:59 AM »
Mayday,

SCC is right across the street from Blue Mountain High School... so you're safe there.  ;)

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2006, 09:00:04 AM »
When discussing Ross in Philadelphia, it seems ludicrous to discuss courses as far away as Scranton and others more than an hour away like Stonewall, French Creek, etc.  I mean in an hour you can be in New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland.  In my opinion, Philadelphia Ross includes Philadelphia and its suburbs.  If you want to talk Pennsylvania Ross, that's another matter.  As for the distribution of classic courses in the Philadelphia area among golf architects, doesn't Flynn's presence dominate like no other region in the country?  No wonder Ross was peeved about his lack of work in the area.

There are GAP courses in all of the above areas.

wsmorrison

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 09:02:40 AM »
Kyle, of that I am very well aware.  GAP has a 150-mile radius around Philadelphia so the potential for discussion on that basis is widespread.  But the title of Mike's thread is Ross in Philadelphia.  Now, because he's such an undisciplined thinker, the thread has wandered.  I was just providing definition to his wanderings  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 09:04:07 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 09:05:53 AM »
The bumper bowling method of thread management, understood.

Ross IN Philadelphia would technically be Torresdale, then, no?  :P :P

To be honest, I had no idea Ross did more than Aronimink, T/F, Jeffersonville and Tom Paul Mills in the area.

TEPaul

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2006, 09:07:16 AM »
Although anyone can think whatever they want about what is and what isn't a "Philadelphia" course I pretty much go with the old radius of GAP (50 miles from Penn's Hat in Philadelphia) as to what constitutes a "Philadelphia" course. Some may prefer to call those courses outside Philly and suburbs "Delaware Valley" courses but most around here have always called them "Philadelphia" courses because of their membership in GAP. (The radius for membership in GAP today is 150 miles from Penn's Hat).

Kyle Harris

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2006, 09:07:59 AM »
To answer the original question (a good one):

If Ross in Philadelphia is anything higher than second teir. Ross would be overrated.

Having played the Flynns, Tillies, and walked the Wilson... Ross's cation in Philadelphia doesn't compare nearly as much. I would certainly hope his work in the area wasn't his most prolific - for his sake.

Craig_Rokke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2006, 09:53:13 AM »
Wayne mentioned Flynn's brother in law being sacked because
of excessive drinking. Given the interest here in quirky golf holes
that are often unpredictable or unusual, could an occasional episode of binge-drinking be an asset to the creative design process?  ;D Just kiddin'.

TEPaul

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2006, 10:05:52 AM »
"I just realized they don't list Jeffersonville;one that I want to get back to play."

Mayday:

Jeffersonville never was listed as a Ross course. The owners of Jeffersonville (the township) went to great lengths to prove that Jeffersonville was a Ross course and they finally did that---in a manner of speaking. ;) The Tufts library in Pinehurst had nothing on it and they told the township to search around the area of Jeffersonville to see if they could find anything and finally they did. Apparenlty they found some receipts from the Ross organization for Jeffersonville in some lady's attic. I'm not certain but I suspect that lady was J.B McGovern's daughter. She still lives there and I've spoken to her. She says that her father designed and built Jeffersonville, not Ross, even though he worked for Ross at the time. Apparently Ross may never have seen it although that would seem unlikely. To this lady Donald Ross was like her favorite uncle. She said he was in Philadelphia often and he was one of the nicest men she's ever known. His daughter Lillian lived above the Ross office in Wynnewood of which J.B McGovern was the office manager and Ross's primary foreman in this section of the country.

There's another architectural co-incidence involving Jeffersonville G.C. As most know the Fazios came from Norristown, where Jeffersonville G.C. is. Tom Fazio says it's the course he frequented most when he was a kid.

So if I were Tom MacWood I might conclude that the primary or most significant influence on a course such as Shadow Creek, and perhaps all the rest of Tom Fazio's portfolio must be none other than----Yup, you guessed it---little Jeffersonville G.C in Norristown Pa.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 10:14:22 AM by TEPaul »

Dave Maberry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2006, 04:20:58 PM »
 Of courses listed earlier the following are NLE
 Overbrook Country Club was designed by Ross in 1922, this was replaced by J. B. McGovern design in 1952;
 Sunnybrook Country Club a Ross design from 1921 was replaced by William Gordon layout in 1956 when club moved;
 Cedarbrook Country Club designed by Ross in 1922, this was replaced by W. F. Mitchell design during relocation in 1962.  

 Jeffersonville Golf Club connection with Ross was supposedly proven via receipts, etc and will be added to Ross Society list when it is updated.

Dave

wsmorrison

Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2006, 04:27:55 PM »
Dave,

Ross's Sunnybrook course was substantially remodeled by Flynn in 1928 or so.  Some of Flynn's work can be still be seen on the remaining 9 holes that make up the current Flourtown CC.

I'm playing Ross's Torresdale-Frankford for the first time tomorrow in 60 degree weather.  That is if my shoulder doesn't give out.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 04:30:24 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Trenham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Ross in Philadelphia--Where do they stand in his portfolio?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2006, 11:24:07 PM »
I've played all of the Philadelphia Ross's courses (including my home course) and I have to say I find them to be inferior to the Ross courses I have played in New England and NC.  In fact two of the three other Ross courses I played this year (Plainfield, & Pine Needles) I consider better than only the two best courses in Philadelphia and there is a lot of good golf in this town.
Proud member of a Doak 3.