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scott_wood

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your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« on: November 13, 2001, 02:42:00 PM »
in the slightly interminably thread on "the bridge", mike cirba succinctly summarized his opinion of rees' style

"I've played about a dozen original Rees Jones courses (not The Bridge, which I'd certainly love to see), as well as a number he has either "restored" or "renovated", and I think anyone who has played that number would likely agree that Rees has a very distinctive style.

The traits I see exhibited in his style include;

1) An emphasis on visibility.
2) An emphasis on playability.
3) An emphasis on shaping his courses into smoothly flowing lines, in everything from his mounding to his bunkering. A great deal of it is perfectly symmetrical, to the point where many of his bunkers for a long period of his career were perfectly oval and his mounds almost half-circles.
4) An emphasis on man-made shaping over the use of natural, less symmetrical features.
5) An emphasis on "challenge" from the back tees, as most would agree that his courses are not easy by any stretch.
6) Holes that are concave, and tend to contain the golf ball.
7) The idea that the man-made features provide the visual dramatics largely irrespective of site. I've played Rees courses that were built on dead-flat sites,and others that were built on mountainous terrain, yet the shaping imposed on the land was remarkably similar.
8) His courses tend to be very "clean and neat", and the details (such as the maintenance shed example) are always attended to...perhaps too much so.
9) Greens that are functionally challenging, with smooth broad elevation changes within their interior contours, if not necessarily reflective of surrounding terrain. They tend to be large and multi-dimensional, much like his father's approach to some degree."

Having played several of rees' designs from arcadian shores, through haig point to atlantic and being a member of one of his newer designs, Olde Kinderhook, it appears to me Mike has excellantly summarized the style.

Thoughts??


Peter Galea

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your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2001, 06:14:00 PM »
I don't have time to comment on Olde Kinderhook tonight,(3 boys, homework, etc) but I thought I'd post these.


third hole, par five


sixth hole, par four


fourteenth hole, par four

"chief sherpa"

PG

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »
 
fourteenth hole, par four

Peter Galea

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your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2001, 06:17:00 PM »
Notice the maintenance facility in the first photo.
"chief sherpa"

Mike_Cirba

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2001, 06:32:00 PM »
Scott,

As a member of a course that I've heard from several knowledgeable people is among Rees Jones's best, I'm glad and heartened that you found my summation of his work to be fair, accurate, and somewhat comprehensive.

I started into a long post about how sensitive I am to be lumped as a "basher" of ANY architect, and how nothing disturbs me more.  Then, inadvertedly, I bumped the "Clear Fields" button while typing, and my post was gone.

Perhaps that's all for the better.  Instead, I'll just let your very kind words speak for themselves and hope that others find my comments to be objective, thoughtful, and worthwhile.  


Mike_Cirba

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
Scott,

I did forget to mention that I WILL certainly make it a point to visit Albany next year, and hope to play Olde Kinderhook with you and Paul, if we can schedule it.  

Pete,

Thanks for sharing.  Those pictures look really good to these tired eyes, and certainly something very fresh and yes....DIFFERENT from what I've come to expect based on playing quite a number of Rees Jones designs.  

Anyone who happened to read and agree with my post on "convex" versus "concave" golf holes and features will immediately notice the startling difference, as well.

Frankly, I think it's very exciting and encouraging that one of the most prominent of our modern designers seems to be willing to adapt his style.  Brian Silva is another who comes to mind.  

 


TEPaul

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2001, 06:48:00 PM »
Scott:

I was reading this a few hours ago and was going to ask if you could call back with this topic in about a month since we've almost been mounded to death and sort of overReesed Reese-ntly, but I had to go out to dinner.

But when I looked back in here there were a few posts and some photos. Since they're only photos I can't make any specific comments on them since I haven't played the course or even walked it but I will say I like what I see.

I would love to play the course sometime but in the meantime I hope this post is not considered "bashing". If it is, I apologize!


Tim_Weiman

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your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2001, 07:16:00 AM »
Mike Cirba:

I would not consider your summary of Rees Jones' style "bashing".

Part of avoiding "bashing" is providing a DETAILED account of your views.  You've certainly done that.

What disturbs me is when people say things like "typical Fazio" or "typical Rees".  I dislike it because such statements don't add to my knowledge - or demonstrate the writier's knowledge - of a particular venue.

By contrast, explaining in detail what one has found at a site - even if the comments are very critical - simply isn't "bashing".

Finally, I can't imagine Scott Wood, a member at Olde Kinderhook, quoted you for the purpose of bashing Rees Jones.

Pete Gelea:

Thanks for the pictures.  Looking at the pictures, I would not have a clue who the architect was.  I'm attracted to the site, not who ever did the work.

Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2001, 02:34:00 AM »
Tim,

You misunderstood me, and perhaps I wasn't clear.

I very much took Scott's kind words as a compliment, and my reference to "bashing" came from my perhaps over-sensitive reaction to some of the comments on the thread he is quoting me from.  

By the way, based on these pics, I DON'T think I could identify the architect either!    Very cool.


Matt_Ward

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2001, 03:47:00 AM »
I'll say something that should really get the "classic types" up in arms ...

Olde Kinderhook is easily, that's right, EASILY among the top 20 courses in New York State.

Unfortunately, because of a remote location (just south of Albany and a penchant for privacy which is the clubs' prerogative) very little has been said about the club until most recently.

Played it last year and credit Rees Jones for being able to do so much with an exquisite piece of property.

Mike Cirba:

Your summary of Rees is accurate and I also know that when you play some of the designs that have been highlighted as "new" Rees you will have a different take on what he's doing NOW. Naturally, you can make up your own mind.

But, keep in mind, any mention of Rees today with his work in the past (Arcadian Shores???) is really a complete stretch. There has been a major shift and his recent work that has been listed should show that to any with an open mind like yourself.

I think it would be really great for one of the members of Olde Kinderhook to post a hole-by-hole description. I can do it, but I think one of the members would do a far better job in describing the inner details of each hole.

P.S. Mike, I have to add, your comments have never been construed by me as anything close to "bashing." Others on GCA have that in spades, but not you.


GeoffreyC

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2001, 04:52:00 AM »
I must say that Mike Cirba's outline of the Rees Jones style fit the impressions I had to a tea until this past spring.

That was until I played Ocean Forest in Sea Island Georgia. That is one really fine golf course.  As an aside, we were given a tour of the course the day before on a wagon train of carts that stayed on the paths.  The initial impression from the sides of the course were not all that favorible. There was an impression of many claustrophobic corredors and it was not clear from viewing that the beautiful natural hazards would come into play in a strategic manner.  This impression was wrong!  My point is that even students of golf architecture could get it wrong without playing (or seeing others play) the course. Even on site (not just using 2-dimentional photos).

I have not played Old Kinderhook but it is on a list of places I have to play.  From Pete's pictures I will certainly visit ASAP as it looks teriffic.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2001, 05:35:00 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Actually, I think we are on the same page.

As for being "over sensitive" about bashing, that's probably a good thing.  But, keep in mind, "bashing" is not the same thing as "criticism".  Avoiding the former doesn't necessarily mean avoiding the latter.

Tim Weiman

Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2001, 05:50:00 AM »

 Per Matt Ward's request I am going to post a hole by hole on Olde Kinderhook but on another thread.

 Pete,

Accomplished superintendent, golfer and photographer!! Is there no end to your talents.  The pics are great and I know you have more so feel free to post them on my OK thread when I begin.
      Paul


Tommy_Naccarato

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »
Mike,
Now these are some pictures I can say that have that Super Pete style and substance.

My critique of them is this:

Picture #1 shows an almost "push-up" style of green that is pretty much gone from most commercial architectural styles. The green certainly has a throat to run it in on, but I ge the feeling that isn't what you want to do here. It seems to be clearly designed to fly the ball and stop it ASAP, (Modern mentality, which as you know is beneath me.) whether it be into the tier of the green or provide enough shot-produced spin to stop the ball before going off one of the edges.

I know of another very similar green complex of a very popular modern course that is not only similar, but WAS just as penal--The recently altered #6 at Bandon Dunes. (Which I liked, but most others didn't.)

I think the bunkering does have a very good non-Rees look, that is until you get into the grass faces of the complexes, and then it has a very similar feel to Rees work at Lake Merced. I wonder if OK is the results of the same associate that did the Lake Merced?

Picture #2 seems to be very similar to Rees' style and flair. From the bunkers which are once again grass-faced replicas of Lake Merced, a bit of Sand Pines, and pictures I have seen of a course, done by His Reesness, that shall remain nameless--on grounds to prevent another Holy War.

How does this bunkering figure int othe strategy one may ask? I couldn't tell you, the picture is being shot from the right side, but that indeed really could be the shot judging from the crossing-tier, that seems to get deeper to the right side of the green, which would accept a shot from the angle of this picture.

In the background, I see some sort of backside of mounding that looks to be of the same size and structure as the famed "Rees Pieces."

Picture #3 show part of some more of the Rees Pieces-variety. I like this shot though. I have a similar one at my little rinky dink club in Corona, which if maintained properly, one can challenge thebunkers at a left pin placement, bounce the ball off the side of the hill and run it on to the green.

One could even say the surroundings of Old Kinderhook would be similar to Stonewall.

I hope that this critique doesn't offend anyone. It has been that kind of week.


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2001, 05:47:00 PM »
Although I like courses to be a bit more wild and woolly, I feel that Rees Jones builds eminently playable tracks. Players at all levels can find something to enjoy during the 4 or so hrs. spent on one of his designs.

That is truly what matters for anyone other than a student of architecture.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2001, 06:04:00 PM »
You're right Buhdda about challenging those bunkers on the left of the green on the last photo. I did just that with a low 4 iron. Kicked it in short left and ended up about 12 feet right of the flag, rolled it in for birdie. Went to the next tee with my chest out like a Rhode Island Red. Birdied that too! Enuff about me. This is one GOOD golf course, yeah there are some mounds on it (so what?), you challenge it, it challenges you. There are shots there you would absolutely love. OK is a golfer's course. The members are GOLFERS. They are as good with the shots and flatstick as they are with the "needle" . It plays FAST and FIRM, the ground game is alive in Columbia County. Thank you Scott and Paul for the experience. I don't care who designed it, OK is not to be missed, OK.
"chief sherpa"

T_MacWood

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2001, 07:09:00 AM »
There seems to be general agreement that Ocean Forest is very good. Although the coverage wasn't the best, I wasn't overly impressed with what I saw during the Walker Cup, although the views and some of the backdrops looked spectacular. I've studied the routing it looks a somewhat jumbled, but perhaps that couldn't be helped. http://www.walkercup.org/course/index.html
What are the strong points of the design? One of my complaints with Rees' courses is that within 24 hours it is difficult to recall many of his holes, unless they are an often photographed signature hole or are outstandingly bad. Are the many holes at OF that are burned in your mind?


GeoffreyC

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2001, 01:41:00 PM »
Tom MacWood

I mentioned in a previous discussion that we got a tour of OF from carts along the outside of each hole and I thought it a bit claustorphobic and wondered how it would play.  We were fortunate enough to get to play the next day and my opinion changed a lot.

The routing is not bad at all.  There is a bit of a problem in that the 1st and 10th holes are hindered by wetlands such that a forced carry is necessary on both and water is down the left side of #1.  Not necessarily the best way to start.  

The front 9 is basically a counterclockwise loop while the back starts as a clockwise loop but then meanders back away from the clubhouse on 16 and back to the ocean for a dramatic finish on 17 and 18.  BillV noted the long walk between 17 green and 18 tee and correctly pointed out the drama of the setting, the chance to make new bets or think about the tee shot along the ocean on 18.  

There are MANY holes of note and they are in fact quite memorable, There is little if any containment mounding. The par 5's on the front 9 are long and straightforward but good holes.  The Hole of note for me on the front 9 was the par 4 8th hole requiring a left to right tee ball hugging a big fairway bunker for a good angle to the green.  The second shot really requires a right to left approach due to the huge bunker on the left of the green. On the back side there are many strong holes.  The 10th is a good risk reward par 5 with wetlands all down the right side.  The cape tee shot on the mid length par 4 11th is also quite good.  I thought the short 13th along the oceanwould be very tight and claustrophobic when riding the course the day bafore.  It is delightful to play and one of the few short Rees Jones par 4's of merit I can remember.The tee shot must take into account the cross hazard and fairway bunker on the right while the excellent greens complex and chipping swale on the right work very well especially given the prevailing wing from left to right. The whole finish from 15- 18 is quite memorable with the highlight for me the 2nd shot into 16 with the wetlands behind the green and the wind trying to push the ball all over the place. #17 works for me better then the 17th at HarborTown.  Its a really tense tee shot that can play from many angles due to about 10 different tee boxes. 18 didn't play as well as I'd hoped for mainly due to the angle of the tee boxes taking the water really out of play.  Also, it was softer than it should have been and the ground game was impossible.  That's tough for such a long par 4 and with all the wind that usually blows at that site.

Overall, I liked Ocean Forest better then Victoria National.

Rees really can build excellent golf holes.  BillV and I played at Fiddlers Elbow Forest course (Rees 1994) yeaterday and while it has the worst routing I've seen this year contains some absolutely first rate golf holes. In particulat, the par 3's and mid length par 4's were quite excellent.

Do these look like Rees Jones?

 

 


TEPaul

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
The second photo looks OK and the first photo does too for the most part but what in the world is that architecture behind that par 3 in the first photo? It's in the shadows but what I can see of it looks grotesque! What's the point of it? It looks like a mammoth Elvis Vegas cat collar on a pretty nice suit. Look at how that architecture back there cuts a mature treeline in half.

Imagine how nice that hole would be if that was totally removed. What's that mounding in the left greenside bunker? What's the point of it? Take it out, flatten it out, whatever and that bunker complex would look much better--certainly more natural.

Again, the first photo looks good but there is some very low mounding behind the green. It's low enough where it isn't all that noticeable, but what's the point of that also?


Mike_Cirba

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2001, 02:48:00 PM »
Tom,

Your questions about the par three green and the "Elvis Vegas Cat Collar" behind it are exactly the things I think Rees might be improving on.  Please see my detailed comments on convex vs concave architecture under the Olde Kinderhook thread, that I will probably spend too much of the evening writing shortly.  


Mike_Cirba

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »
Actually, I think I'll just post it here since this is where my friend Tommy replied and is also where the pictures are.

Tommy,

I have this half-baked theory that one of the major differences between classic and modern design is what I call the "convex vs concave" design factor.  

Simply put, it goes like this..

The dead guys were more than likely to situate their greens and fairways at the "high points" of an area, with a perfect example being Donald Ross's use of all the high points on a piece of property for the tees and particularly, the greens.  There were certain utilitarian reasons for doing so, such as drainage, but the fact that many of their greens occupied the highland, and fairways often occupied sideslopes meant that the "effective targets" were often minimized.  Factor in the fast and firm conditions, and classic golf, despite looking fairly "open", really puts a premium on accuracy and shot-shaping (see Linc Roden's interview for a much more specific thesis).

Conversely, modern architecture seems to have taken the exact opposite approach.  Yes, tees seem to still occupy high points, but more for the goal of providing visibility and scenic value.  Fairways are often concave bowls surrounded by higher mounding on each side, and green surrounds are built up to "contain" and "frame" a shot.  Blindness is eschewed, even partial-blindness, and this school of thought may have reached its zenith with Jack Nicklaus's contention that he wished he could design 18 "downhill holes".  

Largely gone was the green that sat at the pinnacle of a hill, falling away both subtly and sharply to surrounding bunkers or slopes.  Instead, on an uphill shot, the architect would often cut into the ridge, using the fill to create surrounding mounds, and even building bunkers at a level higher than the green it defends!  (Please see the back bunker in GeoffreyC's first photo).

The focus of this school is on aerial golf, fairness, scenic value, and playability.  Rees Jones was literally a Dean at this school of thought.

Now, look at the pictures of Olde Kinderhook again, and see the difference.  Yes, some of the bunker shaping might bear his trademark, but not nearly as much so as his stereotypical oval pots and flat amoebas that he built in years past.  

Instead, what I see that is VERY encouraging and different for Rees is the use of putting his targets on the "high ground", and letting the indifferent shot fall where it may.  

And although the bunkers may be grass-faced, they certainly look deep (especially in relation to the green surfaces) and hardly a picnic.  They also appear to me to be much more varied and irregular than anything I've seen from Rees, which were almost alway built up with surrounding mounding and stylistic, symmetrical shaping, as well.

On the first picture, couldn't that fairway tongue fairly be called a "false front"?  It certainly looks to have repellent qualities, and I can imagine a shot landing short sucking back all the way down the hill.

The second photo's bunker complex looks sunken below fairway level, so much so that it appears a shot might even run into them on the lower side if it hits the fairway curving in the wrong direction.  They also look much more random and scattered in appearance than I have seen from Rees.

And finally, on the third pic, it looks as though the approach needs to flirt with the bunkers left, and if a ball lands short and avoids those bunkers, it can run on using the left-to-right native slope.  Shots overcooked will easily run into the deeper bunker to the right.

What's more, I see evidence of Rees using the natural land forms and creating his features to optimally utilize them.  And more to my point, the targets seem to occupy high points and side slopes that occur naturally on the property to create the demands of the game.  

Don't you think we should be fairly rejoicing at what seems to be a clear change of mid-career direction for Rees?


Mike_Rewinski

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2001, 03:08:00 PM »
As a point of information on the topic of Rees' style Atlantic is rebuilding their tees. They want square cut tees but they are not just cutting square boxes on the free-form bases, they are reshaping the whole tee from the ground up.

TEPaul

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2001, 07:04:00 AM »
MikeC:

The first photo looks to me (at first glance) like a real old fashioned push-up green. Again, I'm not all that familiar with Rees Jones's style (or his career style, if he has one) but the photos of Olde Kinderhook on here don't look much like what I've thought of as Rees Jones's style.

Many of these holes basically look quite a lot like some old fashioned architecture to me. Call it "Golden Age" or whatever you want to call it but most of these holes (with a few exceptions on detail) look like a pre-WW2 golf course to me. And I've never seen a Rees course that looked this way so what does that tell me--or you?

It tells me, if I'm even remotely right about that, that Rees is changing and doing some different things! On Olde Kinderhook, at least, Rees is into some kind of retro look and design. And judging from these photos he's doing a pretty damn good job of it. But there does seem to be some modern giveaways and indications that he hasn't done a total retro job of it (if he was even trying to). But honestly, who's going to notice, except maybe 50 fanatics on Golfclubatlas, and how much does that really matter?

But what I'm about to say about the modern giveaways are strictly very much my own opinion, and I admit I'm no architect, and I'm still very much in the architectural learning mode. I may even be way out in left field with my observations and I welcome anybody else to say so and tell me where I'm misguided or misinformed.

Again, the first photo looks to me basically like a real old fashioned push-up green. I like the basic archtiectural lines he did with that green (particularly the green surface itself). See the way it transitions with the background like the old fashioned style. Old fashioned push-ups sometimes had a real "manufactured" look to them because basically they were manufactured.

I could be wrong but the "push-up" style green (the old fashioned green surface construction method) I believe was as much a green sub-soil or sub-surface construction method as an architecturally or actually pushed up green (like the one in the first photo). In other words even a green that melded seamlessly into its approach or surround in the lowest of low profile looks was still considered the "push-up" construction method. I could be wrong about that and more knowledgeable people than me on the older architecture or construction methods could confirm or deny that.

But just for a moment let's switch over to the "playability" or strategy of this particular hole; as I understand it this green is on the end of about a 540yd par 5!
I don't get out much but honestly I don't think I've seen a lot of greens that look and probably play like this on the receiving end of a 540yd par 5! Actually, I take that back, I can think of two at Torresdale Frankford (Ross). But still greens like this one are usually at the end of short to medium length par 4s. But what Rees has done here with a green like this on a hole like this one is might be brilliant!

To me a hole like this is basically designed to receive a shortish iron approach, so imagine for a minute what strategic (or tactical) thoughts go through a golfer's mind who is trying to hit this par 5 green in two!! Pretty interesting! This is a bit like the brilliant pyscholological switcheroo #17 at Easthampton G.C. except C&C's is actually much better psychologically because it's about a 485yd par 5 instead of 540yds!

In other words, if you go at this green in two and miss it, strategically are you saying to yourself, "I wish I'd laid up within 100yds of it instead of being around the side of it somewhere--or in a greenside bunker?" Maybe or maybe not!

But even for a short iron approach look at the green design--a narrow front (relatively hard to hit) with deepish bunker danger on either side! Or the safer short iron play to the wider, more accomodating rear with a putt back down a classic early Ross style side to side stair-type tier.

And unless I forget to mention it, the green surface really does look old fashioned in almost every way and the rear line against what it visually transitions into behind is exactly like the old stuff!

The bunkering, though, is a relatively close copy of the old fashioned architecture but has some real modern giveaways. The two "puffy" shoulders forming the two identical capes in the left greenside bunker is some kind of adaptation of various styles, in my opinion. But heh, that's OK if that's what Rees wanted to do. He may have been into some adaptive Retro-combo look at Olde Kinderhook and I think it looks pretty good except for some giveaway regularity of formation (later on that).

Generally a Ross type bunker on a green like this (as an old fashioned example) would have the steepish face and probably the "wiggle" on the bunker face that follows the leftside greenline but probably not with the capes (like this one).

For some mini cape-lines on a greenside bunkers like this one see the right greenside bunker on #12 Merion in GeoffShac's "Golden Age of Golf Design" on page 70! Bunkers and greenside bunkers like this one (Merion's) just don't get any better than in this photo! Note how it has the laciness and maybe even sort of cape-ish elements but how the Merion bunker's lacy features and capes or mini-capes are much lower profile. They have none of that "puffiness" to them! They appear flatter, almost like if someone took a huge masher and hammered on Rees's puffy construction features.

But there's a reason Rees's look like they do and the ones in the photo of Merion's #12 look like they do. Rees's were formed by machinery and the sod was layed onto them and stapled into place. The machinery almost always works these formations into that rounded shape so the end result will be that "puffy" look! Merion's #12 bunker in the photo probably had the sod clumps just layed into the bunker and away it grew. That's about the way it's done still by C&C, Hanse and Doak! But anyway!

The irony is that with a long evolution span that beautiful lacy bunker look (Merion's original #12) will get a bit of a "puffy" look with decades of sand splash! But then the maintenance crews are constantly sort of trimming it up on the edges (hopefully correctly) and it then evolves into something like what Merion's bunkers looked like in 1999 which is a little different than the bunker on GeoffShac's page 70 and a lot different than what they look like today!

How do I get so far afield? Lateness and wine is how! Anyway, the bunkering on the right of this green looks a little better. Also the roundness on the cape (or whatever) on the right side of the left bunker is probably unnecessary.

The bunker in front of this green looks good--it looks old fashioned and could play real strategic for someone going at this green in two!

There may be some other things I forgot but it's too late now. I don't think this particular green appears to have a "false front" on it--a false front technically being a green-surface unpinnable drap-down. Miss this green surface front though and it appears the ball will retreat!

You asked MikeC, and I could be all wrong but what do you think?

I did read your post on concave vs convex and I agree with what you say almost entirely. It is aerial golf probably initiated by the ease of earthmoving of post-WW2 (concavity), the ease of drainage (placing drainage pipes in places in fairways they never did in the old days, etc, etc). Whatever it was, construction possibilities, ease of earth-moving, modern pipe drainage methods or a conceptual or arcthitectural shift (post WW2) for some other reason, something got things going from convex (natural) to concave (manufactured) and helped create more one dimensional aerial golf courses!

I'm wiped out--I'm going to bed! If there're typos--screw it!


BillV

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2001, 08:21:00 PM »
Clearly and definitely improving in quality as interpreted by a broad audience. There is also less repetition of looks on a particular course.

Routings still need work. Sometimes a lot of work.  Walkability suffers, rhythm suffers.

A fine test of golf skills from the back tees.  Guaranteed.  Appropriate tests depending on tees chosen re: abilities.

Generally excellent visibility.

Generally very very fair.

Just what the Horsey Set wants with its soft, voluptuous, polished, moneyed clean look (For better or worse for some).  

Generally several excellent holes, a few blah holes.  Longer holes tend to be without much window dressing.

Second shots on the par 5's generally lack definition and challenge, but not always.

I do look forward to playing his courses as I understand what his design group is doing, why they are doing it and appreciate it for such.  

To use my blonde, brunette redhead similie, with no offense to the ladies whatsoever....Rees Jones courses are refined blondes, wearing well fitted tight-calfed jodphurs and tall boots, starched white shirts, carrying a crop and with the white blonde hair pulled very precisely if not severely into an elegant.  Not everyone's cup of tea, but mind blowing for some and appreciable for those that understand where it comes from and where it is going.  

And he is clearly building better green complexes and strategy into the courses for the purist, a little at a time.  Definitely improving.


BillV

your balanced opinion of rees' style...
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2001, 08:25:00 PM »
....pulled into an elegant almost mathematical pony tail.  Sorry for the partial deletion.    Hope she visualized well.