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Philippe Binette

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« on: November 09, 2001, 04:30:00 AM »
The PGA Tour season is nearly over and now we can appreciate courses from around the world during the next few months of championship golf. But a question comes to my mind, the courses in the rota for the Australian Open are so great, why not try to understand them and improve our courses in America in the same perspective.
Courses in Australia looks so natural with their deep free-form bunkers, a bit of fescue, their hard and fast conditions and their sweet natural slopes...
Also, those courses not only look great but also play great, there are option from the tee, tricky and various lies if you miss the fairways...grass is mown at a fringe-like height around the greens so you can play different shots and to create excitement, the wind is usually up...
Courses like Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne and Royal Sydney are so great compare to our evergreen, artificial so-called championship courses in America, we have something to learn I guess...

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2001, 06:44:00 AM »
Philippe, I have seen a number of courses built/designed here in US in the last 5 years that are getting back to some of those characteristics you admire.  However, design isn't all of it.  Maintenance is the other part, and the US golf consumer still suffers from the blinding nature of the color green.  Part of it is that many of the new courses that have the design characteristics of classic bunkering style and placement and green construction and contouring get so many rounds played on them that they put the superintendent in the bind of having to over water and fertilise them due to the excessive wear and tear, and thus they are so green and soft that one overlooks the design qualities that don't match the maintenance regime.  The other problem is the expectations due to the Augusta Syndrome.  

I have played with many individuals that know very little about design and yet they sometimes have an epiphany when they finally get to play a course firm and fast.  That often happens in my part of the world at this time, when just before the winter sets in, it is windy, and the irrigation is shut off and lines blown out for the coming winter.  The course firms up in the fairways, gets a little off color and if they keep mowing the greens they are firm and run more true and fast than the rest of the year.  All of a sudden people marvel that the game can be played along the ground too.  Which the thought of it just has stimulated me to get out there despite the wind chill in 30s, so I am off to play right now...  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 8
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
I'ts true the Open courses are wonderful in Melbourne and to a lesser extent,Sydney and it is fortunate we have never fallen for growing all that long junk rough around the greens that we see so much on TV.

This year ,however, a horrifying precedent has been set and The Open is going to a golf course no one will ever rank in the top 50 in the country. Naturally it's all about money but it's unfortunate because the tournament has always been a celebration of our best courses.


Ran Morrissett

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2001, 03:03:00 PM »
Mike,

Why don't you tell us what you really think of The Grand?  

As for Royal Sydney, when was that course at its peak? 3 years ago? 20 years? 40 years?

Apart from the 17th green at RS which I know you HATE (despite a hole-in-one there, I do believe  ), what are a couple of features that bug you the most? What aspect do you enjoy the most about a round at RS?


Paul_Daley

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Philippe:

Well said! You are in fine company; Tom Doak expresses the same sentiment at every opportunity.


Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 8
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Ran,

Royal Sydney,I suspect, was at its best after Mackenzie left having made his suggestions about the bunkering -which I gather involved filling many in.It seems like they really started to alter it in the sixties or seventies and Ive never had much affection for many of what seem like 'new' greens including 1,5,7,15,17 and 18.


Ive always felt the dogleg left par 4 4th would be a much better hole if the trees on the inside of the dogleg were replaced by bunkers so you didnt have to drive to the outside to see the green.


The bunkering at a hole like 14 just doesnt do it -given the quality bunkering of a Melbourne course it would be a great hole and ive memories (vague)of it looking fantastic in the old days.

I really enjoy holes like 3,7 ,8,9,11 and 13 with the big false front on the green.Staying in the clubhouse is always a treat as well.


Tim_Weiman

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2001, 06:04:00 PM »
Paul Daley:

While we're on the subject of torture (i.e., the lack of Star Trek like machines to instantly transfer someone from Cleveland to Melbourne), could you give us an update on the publish date for your book?

I want to be the first person in the States to receive one!

Tim Weiman

Paul_Daley

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2001, 12:01:00 PM »
Tim: I am impressed by your 'Star Trek' sense of humour, and your desire to receive our new book. It is being released this Wednesday, so I'll post you a copy before the week is out.

On account of Ran having a "review" copy for a GCA interview, you'll be the second person in the States to receive one. If it is any consolation, you become the first "paying" customer in the States! We greatly appreciate your interest.


Ran Morrissett

  • Total Karma: 0
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2001, 12:14:00 PM »
Paul,

You're making me feel bad - charge Tim double, as he'll still think it's a bargain. Problem solved!

Mike,

15 at RS really is a snoozer - what were they thinking? While the predominate north-south nature of the property is limiting,  some diagonal bunkers would immeasurably help break up the linear nature of that particular hole.

Do you recall what the 1st green looked like pre-T&W? It could/should be a cool starter - the elevated Championship tee is a thriller!


Mark_Huxford

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2001, 12:18:00 PM »

Mike C,

I don't know your balance between playing and designing right now so can I just ask you, which events on the ANZ tour are you actually competing in this season?


Mark_Huxford

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2001, 12:29:00 PM »

Paul, as a Paraparaumu Beach man I am naturally interested in your book also. How much information on Alex Russell is in it?
Please email me at hux@mailandnews.com if it will be possible to order a copy from you.

Oh and Mike Clayton, if you still want to see photos of the course renovations here feel free to drop me a line using the same address.


Paul_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »
Ran:

No need to feel bad; one never charges for a review copy. I hope I didn't emabarrass you ... Charging Tim double? I don't feel I know him quite well enough for that, although it would certainly help to pay off a few debts.

Mark:

There is quite of a bit of Alex Russell weaved throughout the book; as a side issue, we have invited his 90 year old son, Phillip, to attend the launch this Wednesday night. Coming up from Barwon Heads, it is dobbtful that he will make it.

Thanks for your interest in a copy, I will send you a private email with details.


Mark_Huxford

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2001, 01:45:00 PM »

Many thanks Paul. Best of luck with the book and the launch. I look forward to reading your interview on GCA when you and Ran do it.

BTW, Ran -- love the timeline you've done for the "courses by architects" section. Why do I have the feeling you could have done that off the top of your head?  

Actually you might have because Para is in the 1930's decade. Russell was actually here in 1949 and 1952.

Mark,


Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 8
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »
Mark

I'm planning on playing everything this season including Paraparaumu so rather than photos I can wait to see it for myself -thanks anyway. I look forward to catching up then  - we have rented a house in PB somewhere.

Ran

I never saw the first at RS but it could be very good with a decent green.

Paul

From all reports the book is as good as we all hoped - sorry I cant make the launch but I'd better get to RQ to practice.


Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 8
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2001, 06:33:00 PM »
Mark

I'm planning on playing everything this season including Paraparaumu so rather than photos I can wait to see it for myself -thanks anyway. I look forward to catching up then  - we have rented a house in PB somewhere.

Ran

I never saw the first at RS but it could be very good with a decent green.

Paul

From all reports the book is as good as we all hoped - sorry I cant make the launch but I'd better get to RQ to practice.


Paul_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2001, 01:26:00 AM »
Michael:

Thanks for your thoughts about next wednesday and the book. We are pleased
with the final outcome and look forward to showing it to you over a coffee - make that a cappuchino - upon your return.

Good hitting up at RQ, you know the place backwards and should have a fun time.


Tim_Weiman

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Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Paul Daley;

I wasn't actually a big Star Trek fan, but in my freshman year at Princeton I did have a classmate who was the national champion in the annual Star Trek trivia contest.  I don't know whichi was more amazing: the fact that he was taking graduate level physics courses as a freshman or his photographic memory of every single moment of every single Star Trek episode.

Anyway, before charging double keep in mind that I still need to set aside funds for a trip down under....and let me know in private email how I can pay (tweiman@aol.com).

Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2001, 10:19:00 AM »
To return to some of Philippe's original comments, I think the sentiments fit in nicely with what I have seen this weekend on TV at Tiburon in Naples FL.  Greg NOrman's design has many themes that I saw at the Metropolitan Club early this year.  I remember that many of our Australian friends did comment that The Met was taking on a bit of the American characteristics of maintenance in being a bit too soft and green from what they had come to expect traditionally.  But, comparing what can be observed on TV, I think that Norman has taken the bunkering style presented at the Met in the sharp inward to fairway and steep green lip cuts and the unkept or native grass back sloped lips outward from the fairways and greens.  Norman's style of bunker is obviously a more soft or sweeping curvilinear look, however.  I think that there is more room in the Norman design between the greenside steep bunker lips (probably in deference to turning mowers ad safety to mow).  But, the short surrounds cuts and mixture of swales rolling into bunkers and chipping-putting optional areas, and ridges or crowns at edge of greens are well balanced and a refreshing design presentation.  Norman left a design that offers many options, as we saw players use a wide variety of shots this weekend.  Of course there is much more water on Tiburon, but let's be fair, the wetland issues there in So.Florida are so much to deal with and overcome, yet I think that Norman wisely left more room than is usually found on these Florida courses between water hazard edges and green surrounds or fairway roughs.  

I hope someone that follows our GCA and has played Tiburon will comment soon.  It would be very good to hear from someone well familiar with golf in Oz to make playing condition and design comparisons.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Morrissett

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »
Thank goodness for the Golf Channel, without which November and December would be awfully dull.

I believe the PGA was at Royal Queensland last year as well?  If so, the course was not overly impressive on television -- I would be interested in the views of those who have played it.

I just realized that the Open is next week, which means GN will not be playing in it (as he is scheduled to play in the Skins Game here in the US).  I imagine that has become quite a piece of controversy -- his playing in the PGA, but not the Open; his playing in the Skins Game and not the Open; and his not playing in the Open when it is played on one of his courses.  What reasons has he given for that decision?


richard

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2001, 12:17:00 PM »
John

Yes the course always appears "plain" on TV, and unfortunately is the same on site.
Royal Queensland is a good course..but no more than that.
Its inundated with magnificent Moreton Bay Figs trees thats are a bugger to get out of when you miss the fairway (large canopy with low overhang). I'm sure Mike Clayton is practicing his low-punch recoveries on the practice range. It's also situated near the mouth of the Brisbane River and the winds normally spring up in the arvo to keep the scores honest.

I played there in an event a year or so back, and was with a few "gun" youngsters that could give it a rip. I think they only used driver a handful of times as a 2 or 3 iron off the tee did the job.

Steven Leaney won there a couple of years ago when it hosted the Players Championship. He was in a dogfight with Corey Pavin down the stretch (which probably enforces the 2-iron off the tee theory). Corey played great that week and I thought he was "back". Maybe not.

RQ is also known for the home of Charlie Earp (Sharkies mentor).

Sharkie seems to be doing some unusual things lately. Not playing the Open at his course "The Grand" is a classic example.
Obviously politics involved, but would love to know the reasoning. I hope Mike Clayton can shed some light when he gets back on-line.

If you can get on the tournament with a bookie..give Peter Lonard or Michael Long a go at around 30/40-1 odds.


Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 8
Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2001, 11:43:00 AM »
Richard

I cant speak for Greg but he used to have a deal with Holden,an Australian car company, who sponsor the Open. That finished early this year and he now has a role with Toyota.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.


richard

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2001, 01:48:00 PM »
I'm guessing Holden was a major factor in his decision but geez, its the Oz Open.

Mike, what happened in the second round last week...i was all set to introduce myself on Saturday but the wheels sure fell off on Friday. Was it the afternoon wind ?

Also, as a mug punter from way back, who should my $10 be aimed at on Sportsbet this week. I doubt if anyone is hitting it better than Allenby but I like value odds.


Mark_Huxford

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2001, 02:20:00 PM »

What are your thoughts on Gareth Paddison's effort Richard?

Great performance winning the Canadian Amateur, then placing well in the Canadian Open and now 3rd I believe at RQ.


Shane G

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2001, 02:27:00 PM »
I like Paul Gows chances at the Open. He has played well at the "shortish" courses before, and his form on the US Tour has been outstanding. Not a bad bet at $26 with Sportsbet.


richard

Time for the best courses of the year, the Australian Open...
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2001, 02:29:00 PM »
Mark

A big effort.
A mate of mine, who is a kiwi, has been warning me about this kid for a while. Lets hope he can keep his feet on the ground, and the media gives him a break, and he can reach great heights.
I've certainly earmarked him for a look at The Grand later this week.

I may submit a spectators report if I get time.