Olde Kinderhook

[Paul Perrella]

 There have been a number of references to Olde Kinderhook lately and I thought it may be time to post a hole by hole description of the course. The course measures from 6,000 to 7,257 yards. Ok has bent grass fairways, bluegrass roughs and some beautiful fescue framing the holes.

 1. The 1st hole is a medium length par 4 of 400 yards. There are two fairway bunkers on the right side so the tee shot should be kept left to have the best angle to the green. The green is bisected from the left with a hogsback and is bunkered on both sides.

 2. #2 is a 425 yard par 4 that moves slightly right to left. The tee shot is over a creek to a fairway with a large bunker on the right and a cluster of bunkers protecting the left side. The bunkers on the left can be carried but the best approach to the green is from the right. A large deep bunker on the left side of the green and three on the right make for an exacting shot.

 3. The 3rd hole is a true three shot par 5 of 602 yards. The first landing area is framed by woods on both sides and pinches down at the 300 yard mark. The hole moves slightly uphill to a crest in the fairway which has two bunkers on the left. The front nose of the green is a very small target but the green gets wider as you get deeper but also has a small tier bisecting it.

 4. The 4th hole is a dramatic downhill par 3 of 200 yards. The green is guarded by two bunkers on the right and a Sahara bunker on the left. The green is divided into three separate areas which makes it essential to be on the correct level.

 5. Hole #5 is a real risk reward par 4 of 365 yards which doglegs around a pond. The fairway bunkers on the left must be avoided but are also the aiming point off the tee. The tee shot should be placed between these bunkers and the pond on the right. The green has a severe break in the middle which makes getting to the back pin positions difficult. The green has a deep bunker on the right and slopes dramatically from left to right.

 6. The 6th is a medium length par 5 of 540 yards. The tee shot plays over a small pond to a fairway protected by a long bunker on the right. After a good drive you are left with a choice to either go for the green or lay up to a landing area with a nest of bunkers on the right. The green is open in front allowing the ball to be rolled on. The peninsula green is protected on the left by a deep bunker and on the right by six deep bunkers. The green also has a declining tier through the middle.

 7. Hole #7 is nestled in the woods and plays 170 yards from the back tees. The green lays perpendicular to the line of play and is guarded by sand bunkers on the left and in front and by grass bunkers at the back. The green has an attention grabbing slope from left to right.

 8. #8 is a 438 yard par4 with carries over two creeks. The first creek can be easily carried from the tee to a fairway that is generous but protected on the left by a large bunker. The green is fronted by creek #2 and while it is the largest on the course at 8800 sq. ft. it is also one of the most severe. There is a deep dish in the front of the green which seems to gobble up many approach shots making the back pin positions troublesome to find.

 9. Hole 9 is a long(462) par 4 that is bunkered on both sides of the fairway. This cathedral hole is surrounded by ridges on both sides. The green is open in the front with a ramp on the right side which allows shot to be run onto the green.

 10. The 10th hole at 427 yards has no fairway bunkers and is another strategy hole. The tee shot needs to find the left side of the fairway to be able to approach the green from the left. The fairway crests about 220 yards off of the tee and then tiers down towards a creek. The green is open in front and is receptive to running the ball on. The green has a large bunker on either side of it.

 11. #11 is a slightly downhill par 3 which at 240 yards is the longest on the course. The green is wide and receptive to any type of shot you want to play. A deep bunker on the left and a more shallow bunker on the right frame the green.

 12. The 12th hole is a 405 yard par 4 with a fairway that is elevated above the wetlands. Three bunkers line the right side of the fairway and a large hill covers the left. This green has a nose which expands to the back "wings" of the green. The green is canted from back to front making the back pin positions tough to get to.

 13. Hole #13 at 560 yards is both a brute and one of the most strategic holes I've ever seen. The tee shot must carry some wetlands and avoid a fairway bunker on the right. A cluster of bunkers on the left and the wetlands on the right make for an exacting second. As you play closer to the green the fairway continues to narrow. This green may be the most distinctive on the course. It sits next to the wetlands and has a deep bunker on the right. The green itself has a deep dish in the middle right which makes finding the correct level essential. A closely mown swale on the left gives several options of play if the third shot is pulled a bit.

 14. The 14th hole is a 493 yard par 4 that requires a well placed and long tee shot. The hole plays slightly uphill off the tee to a fairway protected on the left by three bunkers. The second shot is played over some wetlands to a green that is open in the front and very receptive to the running shot. The green has one large bunker on the right and is one of the flatter on the course.

 15. The 15th hole is a dogleg right par 4 of 380 yards. The hole has a lake that runs up the entire right side of it. A large hill and some woods on the left make hitting this fairway imperative. The green is fronted by a creek, protected on the left by three bunkers and the aforementioned lake on the right.

 16. The 16th hole is a par 3 of 180 yards back over the lake. The tee shot is attention grabbing but the green is even more so. Three distinct levels and a DA bunker(a la PV) in the middle front of the green make 3 a good score.

 17. The 17th hole is a reachable par 5 of 517 yards. A long bunker runs up the whole right side of the landing area. The second shot is downhill to a green with two bunkers on the left and another nest of bunkers on the right. The green undulations protect the par very well.

 18. The 18th hole at 456 yards is one of the most challenging on the course. The uphill tee shot is to a wide landing area with two bunkers on the left. The second shot with a long iron(or worse) can run onto the green along the ramp. The large Sahara bunker left of the green must be avoided.

 All distance are from the back tees

 There are multiple sets of tees on each hole.

 Pete Galea has some picturse that show the course better that my words so I hope he will jump in here.

P.S. There are a number of excellent writers on this site and I don't profess to be one of them. If any clarifications are needed I will provide them.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul, You should send me some pictures of the obvious star holes, especially that stretch from 4-7.  We'd then cut and paste this post and put it under My Home Course.

Cheers,

PS Is the 14th yardage a typo?

[TEPaul]

Pete and Paul:

I got so excited about something, I had to post it as soon as it occured to me--even before reading your hole by hole.

I'm very interested in etymoloy (the derivation of the meaning of words). I'm certain that this must have occured to the founders and members of the Olde Kinderhook G.C., but in fact the name of your golf club IS THE ETYMOLOGY of one of the best known words in the world, certainly in the English/American language!! The reason I thought of it is I saw you referred to your course as OK.

But if the club has not already thought of it, I suggest you tell the Board that the club should formally change its name to just OK. It would be fine too to formally remain Old Kinderhook G.C. in incorporation form or whatever, but the club should certainly ENCOURAGE that it be hereafter known to everyone as just OK. Not even OK G.C.--just OK!! Your club should definitely not miss such a compeletely UNIQUE name opportunitiy like this one.

The actual etymoloy: {Probably after the O.K. Club, formed in 1840 by the partisans of Martin Van Buren, who allegedly named their organization in allusion to "Old Kinderhook", his birthplace being Kinderhook, NY., but cf. also the Bostonian phrase "all correct"}.

The Presidential campaign slogan--"Van Buren is OK"  became one of the most famous in American Presidential campaign history. So it would seem clear that the actual truth of the etymology of the word was definitely an early amalgamation or combination of both derivations (Boston's "all correct" and Van Buren's "OK" (Old Kinderhook)) both clearly combined to make OK one of the best known words in the World.

I actually looked a little deeper into the etymology of "OK" a few decades ago and it appears that Van Buren himself was known to those around him as "Old Kinderhook" or maybe even "OK"!! BTW, the spelling "okay" is meaningless etymologically and is just an alternative and probably more formalized spelling that never really should have been!

Again, you guys should not miss a unique name opportunity like this one---and at least informally refer to your club as just OK--not OK G.C., just OK!!

[Peter Galea]

It was my understanding that Van Buren signed all his papers-
Martin Van Buren OK

BTW: Kinderhook is the home of Katrina Van Allen, made famous by Washington Irving's
'Sleepy Hollow'.

[scott_wood]

as a member of OK, and a"lurker " here, i'll chime in later re the course

but a quick note  re the etymology of "ok"...the story told in martin van buren's backyard here in columbia county,ny is that "OK" was what martin's staff would write/put on their blackbord whenever martin returned to his home here in the village of Kinderhook....and since he only returned home when everything was correct in his sphere , the phrase arose that "OK" means all is fine !!!!  

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

OK: terrific. (There's the headline for the Sports page of the Kinderhood Courier.)

You have one word in your fine report (actually, you use it twice -- but who's counting?) that I'd never seen. I wonder about its etymology; maybe you have time to do the research.

The word is ... etymoloy. New one on me!

(Tell me you didn't need that  .)

[Dan Kelly]

KinderhooK. (Gave it the wrong darned middle finger.)

KinderhooD: juvenile delinquent.

If they ever build a second 18 there, maybe it could be called Olde Kinderslice.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Sorry about etymoloy. You mix a bit too little metal with a typo and you get etymoloy! Mix just the right amount of metal with a typo and you get etymalloy. Should have been etymology.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul Perrella:

Appreciate your hole-by-hole listing of Olde Kinderhook.

I really enjoyed the course and I'll say this again -- you can easily include Olde Kinderhook among the top 20 courses in the Empire State.

The 14th hole you listed is truly a demanding long par-4 -- I really like it. Power alone will not make this hole surrender and best of all the shorter hitter is presented with playable options.

What makes Olde Kinderhook a treat is the variety of holes and the manner by which they are routed. You always are moving in different directions.

I only hope more people can get the opportunity to see this senational course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

Thanks for providing the hole-by-hole analysis.  I'm hoping to get up there to see for myself next year based on Pete and Matt's experiences, as well as Pete's superb pics.  

[Peter Galea]

 
fourth hole/par three

fifth hole/par five

twelfth hole/par four

[Peter Galea]

fifth hole photo should read sixth. Sorry.

[I'm an idiot!]

fifth hole photo, renamed sixth, should read 14th.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have to do this quick as I'm currently in an electrical emergency mode for one of the restaurants. (Panel literally melted and I have to change it)

These pictures are not the best looking pictures I have seen Pete Galea-Master Of Photography, take. I think it is more of a scan or transfer thing because they are not what I would call exactly clear.

However, what makes some of these holes pertain a Rees-Jones look, is the bunkering which features that litle mini Rees-mound in each cape of each bunker. Also, another giveaway is that he combines the above mentioned look with the "Grass faced" bunker look. (Right of the top photo) So as, there are two very distinct bunkers styles on every course, at every Rees Jones course in existence (Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not by much) This doesn't do much for relating to the natural environment that a site can give. The same bunkers at Old Kinderhook in upstate New York can be found at Sand Pines near the ocean in Oregon; Nantucket and Long Island.

The top pictures looks to be a prety good golf hole, but the other two just don't show a lot.

One thing that seems to be missing is the tall Rees-style fescues that he frames with. Certainly after a while, people will notice that it is a disguise to make the course look more natural, even if the grass isn't native to the site. It just hits you in the face. In both seeing it in person at Sand Pines, I have seen in pictures that he has used this grass at Atlantic, Nantucket, The Bridge (right of the par three hole) and many others.

I think many HAVE to start realizing how imnportant it is to design a golf course with all of the elements of natural site involved. It is the only way a golf course can fit into the environment.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy,

Please have a look see at the much clearer pictures of OK on a thread by Scott Wood talking about Rees Jones.  It might be on the second page, but once you comment on those I'll be happy to have a discussion with you on what I find to be very different for Rees Jones on those pictures.

Hope your work day went well!  

[Ran Morrissett]

My favorite picture is the middle one but I am confused as to which hole it is - I don't think it is the 14th as the green doesn't seem to encourage the run-up shot as described by Paul?

[Peter Galea]

You're right Ran, I misnumbered the holes. The one I named 5, then 6, then 14 is really 15. Please give me the large size "stupid sign".

#14 (swear to God) is under scott wood's thread, page 2.

[TEPaul]

I'm also pretty confused as to which photos are which holes, but anyway. This course looks very nice and although I don't know that much about Rees Jones's courses this one looks different than the ones I've seen. In a word, from these photes, Olde Kinderhook looks a lot more like an old fashioned golf course than anything I've ever seen from Rees before.

The first photo, the par 3 #4, is a downhill 200 yarder. Maybe there is something (like a run-up) hidden in the front by the grass sticking up but the hole is in a good setting. Frankly, from the look of this hole in the photo it looks to me like a hole that should be about 160 or less. The bunker on the left, described as a "Sahara" is a real nice looking bunker the way the grass edges follow around in much less stylized lines with the sand but I don't know that a bunker like that wouldn't be better used somewhere else--probably on much flatter terrain!

If this hole was shorter (even if it wasn't), I would like to see that bunker gone and the hole fall off on the left better somehow and follow the basic natural contour of the property which can be seen behind the left bunker.

Holes like this one designed by the old guys generally had the bunker face on the downhill greenside support the green and fall off much farther down that kind of fairly severe right to left sloping terrain. The bunker floor would then be much farther below the green and the bunker shot would need to be much more lofted back onto the green.

Examples of this kind of thing are all over the place on the older courses but good examples of green supporting bunker faces on this kind of terrain would be the left side and left bunkers on Huntingdon Valley's #3 and Gulph Mills's #5.

To get enough level on the green the left side of the green was pushed way up and the bunker face supported it. If the right to left fall-off was as severe as this appears to be the bunker floor was generally much narrower than this left side bunkering. But you can see that instead of supporting the green with the steep bunker face (which they almost always did in the old days), Rees just built up the entire left side with the bunker complex and therefore the left side of this bunker basically supports everything. This in effect makes the left side of this bunker look pushed up (instead of the way the left side of the older greens looked pushed up). So the left side of this bunker looks very manufactured and incidentally hides the sloping terrain behind it.

I suppose in the old days things weren't done this way since it was just a lot more earthwork to build a bunker like this, instead of just the green (with the bunker face supporting it and utilizing the fall-off of the natural terrain that way).

It's hard to tell from this photo but it might also work well if there was some kind of "kicker" to the right of this green to use the natural right to left terrain instead of both right side bunkers. If that were done obviously some kind of gentle right side swale would have to be put in between.

The only other thing I would like to see here is if he could have done away with the rear line behind the green that's in rough and have the back of the green itself be the transition line into the trees behind. This might have given the green a more interesting and probably more visually intimidating look from the tee.

Some of the rear green lines and overall green-end lines on the other photos of Old Kinderhook are done this way and they look really good. It makes the golf course blend into the natural landscape much better than many of the other holes I've actually seen and those I've seen in photos from Rees.

The hole in last photo (#3 photo) looks unbelievably good to me! I've never seen the hole but from this photo everything look unbelievably good and extremely natural!

You can see how Rees appears to have used the natural terrain on the left because that high shoulder line going all the way to the left of the photo matches the top of the treeline behind it and none of the bases of the trees are cut off in an unnatural way!

Obviously on the right side of the hole, particularly nearer the tee end the land fell off rather steeply and Rees must have built up the entire right side of this fairway and then supported it and melded it naturally with the entire right side cape-like bunkering which is the perfect place and line to put bunkering into that kind of upslope and basically somewhat leveled off natural terrain line. The bunkers themselves here look very good too--not Hanse/Doak/C&C handcrafted work but neither is that the look on many of the old fashioned courses around the east coast.

The broad ridgeline down near the green-end must be natural because, again, you can see that from the left of the green to the right of the photo that ridgeline that appears to fall off slightly all along beyond the green is very consistent with the base of the trees behind it! And that to me is the key to matching golf architectural lines really well with the natural terrain and the basic lines and look of the site. And lastly that green appears to meld seamlessly from the approach and end at the natural ridgeline. The back profile of the green (back greenline) looks really natural against its natural setting (the large trees behind it!).

This hole looks really good to me, matter of fact just about as good as it could get! You can also just look at the photo and see quite clearly the various types of tee shots and selections you could hit out into that fairway. The green-end might have an interesting variation of shot selections too but I can't see them on this photo.

[scott_wood]

as promised, more info/opinions from an OKGC member....

1. Paul and I would be willing to host/arrange a game for any/all gca readers,just email. (swood@metzwood.com)OK is very fortunate to have a very supportive owner, and a membership that is interested in the game! The main difference between Paul and my game( we're both mid single digit) is that he's always hitting 2 clubs less!

2. Perhaps OKGC's most unique "feature" is it's setting in the upper Hudson Valley farmland. On a 460 acre site, OKGC starts on a rolling ridge (which has holes 1,9,10,18, the pro shop,parking lot and future clubhouse) that has a 75 mile view of the entire Catskill Mt range!! The remaining holes are on a "lower plain" Much of the course is open to the almost constant winds, (only 1 tree actually is "in play") and almost all the holes take good advantage of the constantly moving topography. If you get a chance to play,one thing  i'm sure we'll all agree is that Rees was given a very choice parcel to build on!

3. OK's strengths IMHO far outweigh the negatives. The course,is one that constantly presents the player with a variety of choices for his shot...the 2nd /3rd shots are ALL challenging,because of the complexity of Rees' design. The greens are , in Mike Cirba's words of Rees' style, large and mutidimensional, making ball position relative to the pin critical,and one of OK's best features. The course plays  7259/7002/6672/6126/5304 but that is misleading (slightly) because of the "firm and fast" conditions. IMHO it is best to put on your thinking cap before playing, and DO NOT challenge the course!The conditioning is very good for a two year old course, and constantly improving! As Pete Galea, who played with us twice said, "it's a player's course", and we're proud of it.

4. OKGC's weakneses are, imho,that it, at times, doesn't fit the feel of upstate NY farm land with some of it's mounding,and  relies overly on interior drains.And since the owner is desirous of holding tournaments,OK has many holes with a fair trek between green and tee, a personal "weakness" to me.Most memebers walk, though.

5. RAN: the 14th is 493, but that tee is rarely used, AND if you are long enough , and challenge the left side bunkers, you can gain an additional 20 yards due to a ridge running   left to rt in the fairway (more choices!). A really testing hole, it was eagled in the local US Open qualifier, by the winner. BYW, he won at 74, 2 over, which was the 2nd highest qualifying score in the US this year!

6. TEPAUL: Pete's picture of the 4th doesn't do justice to it's drop ( approx 50 feet).It IS a better hole from 188/177, where we usually play. The green is GREAT, with a back shelf, and a good sized ridge splitting the middle back to front. The correct tier is 80% mandatory unless you want the "snake"

7. Pete's pic of #6, a "short" par 5, of 540/527/523 is slightly skewed as it is taken from the far right (perhaps he was in the largish bunker???) and doesn't reveal the choices /dangers that present themselves as you decide to either go for the green in 2, or to lay up, and if so, WHERE to lay up, as the green complex slants L to R, on a bias away from the safe layup spot!! Neat...and VERY typical of the choices that almost EACH hole presents, as designed by Rees..

8. How good is OKGC? I'm not sure, but IMHO, ( an interested lurker who has been fortunate enough to play 182 of the 230 courses ever listed by g or gd as top 100s) it is a REAL golf challenge, is very enjoyable to play on a repeating basis,  does display many of the traits, good and bad, that Rees is known for, and will get better as the years progress. Come join us , and judge for yourselves!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

That was some superb visual analysis based on those photos.  I particularly enjoyed your point about the left-side bunker on the par three and how it was built up on the left as opposed to the more classical method of just letting the slope fall in the bunker face nearest the green.  Quite perceptive!

Could you also have a look-see at the other 3 pics of Olde Kinderhook on Scott Wood's thread "a balanced opinion of rees", and let us hear your thoughts.  I'd also be curious as to your critical opinion of my "concave vs convex" design theory.  Thanks.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Sure, I'll put my observations on the three photos on the other thread over there.

[Matt_Ward]

There is another thread going in concerning routing and my take on OK is that the routing is one of the key strengths on the course.

The holes are constantly moving in different directions and there really is no perceptable "pattern" that one finds on many courses. You also have wonderful topography that accentuates different aspects of both air and ground games on many holes.

It was mentioned previously by Scott Wood that OK does not "fit" so easily in the actual location it's situated. That does not mean the course is artificial in its overall presentation. Clearly, there is some mounding and for those determined Columbo GCA types who want to prove something about Rees I'm sure they will be carping.

The really neat thing about OK is that it clearly shows that quality golf in the Empire State is not the sole domain of Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester counties. Most people would often say that Oak Hill / East was the only reason to visit upstate New York -- although I also believe Cobblestone Creek by Hurdzan / Fry is another fine course just outside Rochester too.

I'll give you a second reason that's even closer to NYC -- OK is clearly OK and for those who can take the time I believe it will be more than worth your while. Hard to believe a course just outside Albany could truly be "hidden."

[Scott_Burroughs]

Other supposed true gems in upstate NY include Ross courses Monroe CC near Rcohester and Teugega in Rome.