[Mike_Cirba]

Boy, my mind is just reeling thinking of lots of them I've played.  Alex Findlay seemed to build them on almost every course, and the 6th and 9th at Reading CC are both very good ones.  

Chris Hervonchon & I were talking about one Findlay built recently at his home club in Pitman, NJ.

And Bob Labbance, if you're out there, I know that New England has to have steep uphill par threes in spades, and recall the 3rd or 4th hole at Lake St. Catherine CC in Poultney as a prime example.

[BCrosby]

In Golf Never...Ross says that he dislikes uphill par 3's if you can't see the bottom of the pin from the tee.

The developer of the Athens CC noted that Ross told him his least favorite hole at the course was No. 5, an uphill par 3.  Ross wanted the hill on which the green sat to be shaved down so that you could see the bottom of the pin from the tee.  For budgetary reasons it was never done.

Ross was not a big fan of uphill par 3's. My guess is that he built them only when the overall routing options left him no choice.  

[Mike_Cirba]

BCrosby,

For a guy who didn't like 'em, he sure built enough of them!  

As Scott mentioned above, all 4 par threes at Ross's Mark Twain GC in NY go uphill.  
The second at Mid Pines immediately comes to mind, as well.

[corey miller]

Mike- a course I played yesterday and I know you are familiar with Fenway #11.  pretty steep hill combined with pretty severe green.  One of my better shots of the day landed middle third and rolled back fifteen yards in front.

[Adam_Messix]

#6 and #11 at Manufacturers are pretty uphill and long...and are a pair of rare uphill par 3's that I like....The 11th in particular.  It has a bunker front right that is well short (about 15 yards) of the green that really fools your depth perception from 200 yards.

The most steeply uphill par 3 I've played is the 16th at Llanymanech in Wales/England.  It's about 200 yards, dead into the wind (and it's usually strong) and is all carry uphill.  Ian Woosnam grew up playing this course and it's easy to see why he learned how to hit it hard because he had to on this hole.

[JBergan]

13 at The Wilds looks very similar to 16 at Tavistock, in the NJ Philly suburbs.  16 at Tavistock plays uphill, over water to a green fronted by bunkers.  The green is severely sloped from back to front, making for some very tough putts if you get above the hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott: Thanks for mentioning the 3rd hole at Wolf Creek -- it's a honey!

At nearly 230 yards and straight uphill the hole requires a lofted shot that can handle the strong prevailing winds that usually are behind the golfer when playing the hole.

The slightest push to the right means your ball is deader than Elvis!!!!!

Miss left and the pitch shot requires a touch second only Houdini!!!

Too many par-3's today feature the boring routine downhill shot which usually features some sort of inane pond or other H2O characteristic. The 3rd at Wold Creek will have you howling!!!

Also, need to mention the 17th at Bethpage Black. The hole appears level but the green is slightly above the teeing area therefore forcing the golfer to hit at least one extra club to clear the huge sprawling bunkers in front.

[George_Bahto]

what about that ugly thing at the Concord -
hole 7 .... 248 from the back of the tee-box with a huge flashed bunker all the way up the face of the embankment and a fearsome  falloff to the left

hate(d) it!

[George_Bahto]

what about that ugly thing at the Concord -
hole 7 .... 248 from the back of the tee-box with a huge flashed bunker all the way up the face of the embankment and a fearsome  falloff to the left

hate(d) it!

[JMD]

Two things: (1) Number 11 at Shinnecock is not only up hill, but in many ways all about the hill.  The hole uses its site perfectly even if it ends up being a little more difficult than most 3s; and (2) I agree that Ross is not true to his word about uphill par 3s -- but offer number 7 at the Orchards as a good example of a strong uphill par 3 from his work.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Another long uphill Ross par 3 is #9 at Hope Valley CC in Durham, NC, at 201 yards.  #6 at LuLu is 182 uphill (the hole with the tee 2 yards away mowed into the fringe of the 5th green).

[Mike_Cirba]

JBergan,

As I'm something of a Findlayphile, I regret to say that I haven't had the opportunity to play Tavistock, which I've heard he considered to be his best course.

I'm glad to hear that it has a really good, steeply uphill par three, because he built a bunch of them.  There is also one at Galen Hall, near Reading, but I'm not sure if it's original Findlay or one added by Tillinghast later.  My guess is Findlay, based on my familiarity with his style

Corey,

GREAT to hear you made it over to Fenway.  I came this close to mentioning the 11th in a previous post, as it's a BEAR, with an absolutely frightening green complex.  

What did you think of the course, overall?  If you prefer, my email address is MCirba@aol.com

George Bahto,

That "thing" you referred to at Concord is simply another example of the fine line between a testing, challenging golf course and one that would be absolutely torturous to play on a regular basis.  I can see a hole like that being built if the others on the course were not quite so stringent, as possibly a uniquely deadly hole, but when you consider the company it keeps, it's simply more overkill.

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott,

How about #4 at Lulu?!

A mere pitch of 120 yards or so, but from a low-lying tee to a steeply uphill green set on the top of a quarry wall, with only the top 1/2 to 3/4 of the flagstick visible.

I find it interesting about both Ross and Tillinghast that they didn't always practice quite what they preached!  Both men were too much the creative artists to disregard a dramatic golf hole when they found one, irrespective of dogma or prior philosophic meanderings.

[Eric Pevoto]

Throw Flynn into that mix too, Mike.  Along with Manny's and Shinnecock mentioned above, Spring Mill at Philly CC has one on the back nine (14 or 15?).  Tom Paul has mentioned it before on a Redan thread.  At about 220+ uphill yards from the back tee, it fall into that 3 1/2 par category, and IMHO that's what makes it interesting. It also leads you to a fun short downhill par four if I remember right.

[Jeff_Mingay]

A few uphill par 3s I enjoy, that immediately come to mind:

1) #18 Rogell muni in Detroit, by D. Ross. About 165 yards or so, uphill. You can barely see the green surace. A neat finishing hole, with a steep, steep drop off to the left of the green.

2) #17 Links at Crowbush Cove. I think this the best hole Tom McBroom has laid-out. Only 100 yards and a bit, it traverses a high ridge only a about 50 yards from the Atlantic Ocean. The wind wreaks havoc on anything but a well-struck ball.
The green surface is hidden behind a steep dune face covered with native vegetation. Only part of the flagstick is visible. The green surface is boldly contoured, essentially separated into distinct "cupping areas" by a few ridges, and surrounded by a couple of deep bunkers.
It's a sporty little hole, on an otherwise disappointing seaside layout.

2) #14 at Redtail. About 185 yards long, uphill to an invisible green surface, this hole was not part of Steel's and Mackenzie's (Tom that is!) original routing at Redtail. It was "found" after the golf course was opened for play, about 1991, by owner Chris Goodwin and subsequently added as the 14th.
What was the original 15th, I believe, (a tiny par 3 sorta jammed in between the 11th green, 12th tee and what is today the 15th green, played over a swampy marsh) was abandoned.

[Jeff_McDowell]

Mike,

In your original post you mentioned that I didn't elaborate on why I don't like uphill par 3's. I didn't respond, because I wanted to see what other people thought. Obviously, some people like uphill par 3s, and others don't. Dan Kelly actually likes the par 3 on the Wilds that I despise.

One of the reasons I don't like steep uphill par 3s is that they can become too difficult for the weaker player. Someone said they liked a hole where it took a one iron hit with the trajectory of a wedge. How many people can hit this shot. I can't.

There's an uphill par 3 on the course my dad belongs too. It's an easy 5 iron for me, but for my dad all irons land short of the green and roll at least 20 yards down the hill, and his woods don't have the loft to hold the green.

Another detraction with these types of holes is that there is no option other than hitting the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I was hoping you'd respond and your points are all good and valid ones.

Still, I think holes of this type can be singularly exciting and adventurous, but would offer the following caveats;

1) Steeply uphill par threes work best when the maximum distance to cover is under 170 yards.  That way, especially considering multiple tees for weaker players, the shot and subsequent excitement tends to be within reach for all levels of play.  For instance, I can recall my ex-wife reaching the steeply uphill 13th at Castle Harbour (about 130 yards from her tee) with a driver and her feeling of accomplishment in doing so.

2) Generally, the longer the par three, the less steep it should be, and the more room for error, particularly short of the green.  I'm thinking here of the fairly large bailout area short of the 5th at Pine Valley as a good example of this concept.

For the most part, one hole of this type per course is sufficient, but there are so few of them being built today that I think it's sinful...especially when the alternative is often simply a long, uphill cart excursion as I noted previously.

[Dan Kelly]

Mike Cirba --

"Exciting and adventurous." Exactly! To my eyes, that walk (or, if necessary, ride) up the hill is the flip side of the long hang-time (will it carry the hazard? will it hold the green? will it, will it, will it?) of a steeply downhill shot to a green -- an experience that everyone seems to enjoy, even if things don't turn out quite as one had hoped.

If I were an architect, I'd go into every project hoping to find a good spot for a noticeably uphill par-3.

I think your observations about relative steepness and length are right on the money.

Jeff McDowell --

I don't mean to be a smart-aleck when I suggest that your dad should move to a more-forward tee. That's why they're there, isn't it -- to allow the course to be a manageable (and fun) test of every player's skill?

I simply disagree with you that this is a bad thing in a golf hole: "There is no option other than hitting the green." I wouldn't want every course to be a place where, for 18 holes in a row, missing the green is deadly -- but surely there's nothing wrong with demanding execution once in a while.

The 13th green at The Wilds must be 30 yards deep, at least on the left side, and 30 yards wide. Seems to me that's a plenty big target for the length of that shot.

[T_MacWood]

Many of these less severe uphill par-3s, like #9 & #11 Crystal Downs, #11 Shinnecock, #11 Camargo and #9 Pinehurst No.2, its difficult to judge if they are uphill because they are played over a large depresion, its almost an optical illusion. It seems that it is a common ploy, especially on courses over rough territory, to use these uphill par-3s to move up to higher ground in a less obvious way -- other examples are #17 at Kirtland and #15 at Moraine -- at least I think they are uphill.

[Jeff_McDowell]

Dan,

No offense taken about my dad moving to a forward tee. I actually found it kind of funny. In my dad's case the next forward tee is the "women's" tee. I can't imagine that happening.

But this brings up another common weakness with uphill holes and not just par 3s. I have seen many times where the back or members tees are moved slightly away from the steep portion of the hill. This makes the hill appear less intimidating.

However, the forward tees are moved closer to the hill, and accentuates the hill's steepnes making the hill seem much more intimidating for the least accomplished golfers.

I don't hate these types of holes, but I do try and avoid them. Like I mentioned on the thread about evaluating routings, I am contemplating an uphill par 3 on a current project. With all the positive things people have mentioned, I feel a little more comfortable with the idea.

This is a timely topic for me. Thanks Mike!

[SPDB]

Tom -
are you certain #11 is uphill? i seem to have the distinct memory that this "short" hole is downhill.

[SPDB]

Tom -
are you certain #11 is uphill? i seem to have the distinct memory that this "short" hole is downhill.

CAMARGO that is

[T_MacWood]

Sean
I'm not sure, many times these holes look down hill from the tee, but uphill when looking back from the green to the tee. I thought the Eden, Short and Redan were all slightly uphill, but I could be wrong on some if not all of them.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Great to hear you find this thread valuable and I'm glad that you're considering building one.

You bring up a great point about the closer tees being more severely, directly, and intimidatingly uphill.  In the case of 13 at Castle Harbor, I played from the back tee that was somewhat elevated, but my ex's tee was down at the bottom of a ravine at the base of the hill.  She really had to "crane her neck" at address to see the target!

However, I'm wondering if this isn't an opportunity for you to do something creative and imaginative, and possibly even unorthodox with tee design.  Might it be possible to put the "forward tees" on higher adjoining ground?  It might even make sense for the back tees to be the front tees and visa versa!  

I'm sure you'll think of something appropriately outside the box in an effort to accommodate and challenge all levels of play.  

[Matt_Ward]

Great thread!

I would just hope that all architects who "lurk" or get feedback from GCA would keep in mind the following:

It's time to design and build par-3's that move away from the tired and boring nature of the downhill hole that is usually fronted by a pond or other such element.

These types of holes have been repeated to the point of overkill. One or two tops in a round is fine, but over and over and over again???

The uphill par-3 is difficult -- so what? When you force a player to carry a ball in the air you are talking about a specific type of shot. In addition, because of the elevation change you must add another club or two depending upon wind conditions and how you are hitting it at that time.

Uphill type holes can provide some sort of reasonable bail out -- especially when it involves a good bit of length.

Clearly, there are challenges in designing such holes ans they should be crafted to fit the situation, but I say it's long overdue for these type of holes to resurface and be a resource for any course capable of having them.

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