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Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« on: November 19, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
On the Weiskopf/Morrish thread, Jeff M. mentions a steeply uphill par three on "The Wilds", which he criticizes rather sharply, although I'm not sure exactly why, other than his point that "you can barely see the flagstick".  

In thinking about it, I recall several of these type of holes on the hilly courses I grew up on in the Pocono mountains.  The "drop shot" par three seems almost expected as a design feature, but conversely, the shot up to a perched green is something rarely done anymore.

Can we think of some sharply uphill par threes that we like, and what are the plusses and minuses?

Frankly, I used to really enjoy scurrying up the hill, excitedly anticipating seeing exactly where a well-struck shot may have ended up.


John Morrissett

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Mike--

One that quickly comes to mind is the 2nd at Peterhead.  It's something like 140 yards, but with a constant climb from the tee to the green.  Into the wind, you had the impression that if you landed short of the green your ball might well come all the way back to the tee!

Others, perhaps less severe, would include the 11th at Shinnecock, the 4th at Prairie Dunes, and the 12th at Lundin.


ForkaB

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
Mike

The 18th at Kinghorn in Scotland requires a 1-iron hit with the trajectory of a lob wedge.  Even though the tee is slanted upwards, there is a great thrill when you learn that your ball has actually cleared the sheer wall which looms in front of you.  As for sprinting up the hill to see where your ball has ended up, I would recommend this only if you are a propsective member of the Ethiopian Olympic marathon squad.  This hole has a very admirable green complex which looks even better once you have adjusted to the altitude and even better still if your ball has managed to find it's way there.  It has to be seen to be beleived.


Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
The one Jeff mentions at "The Wilds" can be seen in artistic rendering at the following link.
http://www.golfthewilds.com/images/hole13.jpg

I've found that steep uphill and downhill par threes are often used by architects to transition to other "levels" of the property.  From the routing of the Wilds on the next link, that also appears to be the case in this instance.
http://www.golfthewilds.com/golf/course.html

Although I know nothing about this course, I prefer seeing an architect use existing land, particularly creating something controversial or different, than just having forced a long, uphill cart ride at this juncture of the routing as I've seen many others do.


NAF

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2001, 10:13:00 AM »
#3 at Pasatiempo
#1 at the Addington

APBernstein

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2001, 10:17:00 AM »
Mike:

I wonder if you remember a conversation we had about the merits of the 5ht hole at Inniscrone a year or so ago?

This seems to me as the perfect candidate for a good, steeply uphill par three.  Let me explain...

As the course is routed now, the player walks off the 4th green up and to the right to the elevated 5th tee.  The shot is then 100 (or so) yards significantly downhill to a green that consistently runs away from the player, bunkers short and long.  After finishing the 5th, the player then double-backs and plays the 6th from a teeing ground located right next to the last hole's teeing area.  Here was my idea...

Completely reverse the direction of the hole.  The player would walk off the 4th green and find the 5th tee in close proximity.  The play would be 100 yards UP the hill to a green perched high above the tee.  The 6th tee would also flow right into the 5th green.

While I am obviously not aware of all decisions that were made in design and construction, this seems to allow the course to flow much easier and the player to walk significantly less in distance.

All the best,


SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
#9 at Meadow Brook - I don't think the putting surface is visible from the tee.

Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2001, 10:28:00 AM »

 Mike,

Myopia Hunt has an uphill par three(not sure of the #) that I absolutely loved. This may be the most narrow green I've ever played anywhere. If my memory serves me correctly the green was about seven paces wide and bunkered all around.
          Paul


Paul Turner

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2001, 10:33:00 AM »
 

12th at Ballybunion is also one and it's a brute.


Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2001, 10:34:00 AM »
Andrew,

If I'm not mistaken, what you described was Gil Hanse's original design intent for the 5th.  However, a series of environmental and local govt. restrictions, as well as a pipeline running under the hole caused the pretty significant mid-course correction that is the existing 5th.  

I know Tom Paul and others know the specific details.  


Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2001, 10:35:00 AM »
Paul,

Has anyone checked for bin Laden in there?  


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
Matt Ward previously talked about the steeply uphill #3 at Wolf Creek in Mesquite, Nevada and I concur it is a good hole.  To describe the steepness, the desert land off the tees/fairways/rough is off limits so any ball hit there cannot be retrieved.  Thus, there are dozens of balls implanted in the side of the hill in front of the tees going up towards the green.

Here's a hole/course I wonder if anyone here's heard of:  The 7th hole at Shepard Hills CC in Waverly, NY was a severly uphill par 3 of only 117 yards, yet usually played about 150 or so.

Noel,
I'll have to disagree with #3 at Pasatiempo being considered steeply uphill.  I'd consider it moderately uphill at best.  The old #5 at Pebble Beach was steeper than that.

For anyone in the Raleigh area, there's #5 at Cheviot Hills or #9 at Henderson CC (which has a green with the least pinnable % of the green I've ever seen.  Only about 10% of the green is pinnable, ahead of #18 at Dunes G&B Club).

I consider all of these holes fun and challenging to play.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
How could I forget #7 at the Ross Muni gem, Mark Twain, in Elmira, NY.  It's interesting to note that all 4 par 3's on the course are uphill, with #11 being the 2nd most difficult green I've ever played on, though I've heard they changed it some.

#11 (LPGA tournament, #2 members) at Corning CC (NY) is steeply uphill also.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
Sorry, last post I hope, but #7 (#16 members) at Corning CC is at least as steep, if not moreso, as #11 above.

NAF

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2001, 11:09:00 AM »
Scott,

John Morrissett suggested the 11th at Shinnecock and I think #3 at Pasatiempo is just as steep so that is why I included it..Paul Turner has it right though, the 12th at Ballybunion is steeper than either.


Ran Morrissett

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STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2001, 11:22:00 AM »
Assuming that you don't consider 15 at Kingston Heath as being steeply uphill (or 5 at Prestwick  ), then I'm unaware of any such hole that could be termed great.

Architects like Ross avoided the "steeply" part by stretching out holes such as 11 at Essex County and 12 at Wannamoisett and making them more gradual than steep in appearance.

If confronted with a so-so uphiller, I would be more curious as to the holes that follow. They should be very good holes; as Mike says, if the architect didn't use the uphiller as  a step to get to some good property, then why did he do it? There might indeed be reason to suspect that the property/routing/course is only so-so.

If faced with a hill to climb, architects have historically been far more successful in creating engaging medium length par fours like 13 at Myopia Hunt,2 at Pine Valley, and 6 at Newcastle, Oz than in creating steeply uphill one shotters. Probably has something to due with how depressing a steep incline can be straight off a tee for many golfers ...



Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2001, 11:28:00 AM »
The 6th at Tehama has quite an elevation, however, the quirkiest elevated par three that I have played was at Traigh Golf Club on the road from Fort William to Mallaigh, the port for the Western Isles.

Traigh's first hole is a par three of 130 yards with a green some seventy feet above the teeing ground. I played it in a stiff wind and some rain and hadn't a clue as to what club to use. The one I chose was the wrong one, as I hit over the target by forty yards. If you ever get the chance, play this nine-holer close to midnight in June and see the sunset over the isles, spectacular.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2001, 11:30:00 AM »
Mike Cirba:

I'm surprised no one mentioned #9 at Crystal Downs, a hole that seems to me more steeply uphill than #12 at Ballybunion.  Speaking of Crystal Downs, #11 is also quite a bit uphill.

As a design feature, I see nothing wrong with such holes.  They certainly challenge your club selection, especially when playing in to the wind.

Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2001, 11:33:00 AM »
Ran,

Your point about short to medium par fours being better at transitioning to "high ground" brought to mind Lehigh's 2, 8, & 14 as prime examples, as well.  In that routing, as you know, the downhill transitions are accomplished with the drop shot 7th and the drop-shot, par five 11th, which is somewhat controversial.  

Can you imagine the 7th if it played in reverse??!  

In any case, if the combination of the terrain to be climbed is not TOO long AND too steep, then I believe such holes can be very interesting, exciting, and adventurous to play.

But you're right...there better be something worth seeing when I get to the top out of breath!  


Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »
I'm wondering the total elevation change on #5 at Pine Valley when thinking about "great" holes.  Still, it's not as "steep" as the one's I'm thinking about from my youth in the Poconos, land of quirk extraordinaire, where 130 yards often played like 180 or more.  

Mike_Cirba

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
As I think about it, Charles Banks designed a very steep one on what was 13 at Castle Harbour in Bermuda.  It might not have been great, but it sure was intimidating!

I'm not sure if the hole will exist after Roger Rulewich changes the course under new ownership.


jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Ran and John:

I am surprised that neither of you mentioned the 8th at the James River course at CCV since you grew up playing that course. I know it is not quite as severe uphill since Rees Jones raised the tee a little, but you still have no idea where your tee shot wound up until you get up to the green. I, for one, am too impatient to learn the fate of my shot and therefore, don't care much for that type hole.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2001, 12:13:00 PM »
At last!

A course I've actually played!

Jeff McDowell (in the Weiskopf/Morrish thread) says that The Wilds is an inconsistent layout.

I agree with that.

He says that he likes the par-5 No. 2 because of the hogbacked landing area, which gives the aggressive tee shot a boost and allows the possibility of reaching it in two -- and that he dislikes the steeply uphill par-3 No. 13, because of the near-blindness of the shot.

Everyone's a critic, right?

No. 2, a dogleg-left, is one of my least favorite holes on the golf course. The drive is totally blind, over a hill, with a marshy hazard all the way down the left. As far as I've figured out in four or five rounds there, the architects have given the player no clue as to the line one might take to find that hogback which Mr. McDowell admires, but which one can't see. Maybe if I played the course over and over again, I'd figure it out -- but until then, I'll be playing my conservative drive down the right side, possibly catching the right rough (and, with any luck, avoiding the GD cart path in the right rough, which'll kick ya right out of bounds). Then I'll have a middle-iron, to set up a wedge to the green. Nothing special, in my mind.

No. 13, by contrast, is one of my favorite holes on the course. I haven't played it in more than a year, but I think it's only a 5- or 6- or 7-iron from the back tees (depending on the wind; I think I used a 4 there once, into the wind). You can see the flag, if not much of the stick -- but you can plainly see, on the very steep incline to the green, the horrible, sandy (or deeply grassy) trouble you're making for yourself if you underclub or mis-hit to the right. The green is quite large, and relatively flat, and there's a bit of a backstop at the left rear (the fat part of the green). So it's a VERY fair (if fair is what you're looking for) shot. If you pick the right club and hit it properly, you'll be putting. If you don't, you'll wish you had.

Two of my other favorite holes at the Wilds are uphill: (1) the par-3 7th -- over a marsh with a long iron from the back tees, to a green fronted by a steep hill, with an equally steep backstop behind the green that funnels balls back onto the green; and (2) the par-4 9th. The tee shot is struck over a valley to a steeply uphill fairway -- leaving a reasonably good player with a TOTALLY blind second (of 130 to 160 yards) over a high-lipped fairway bunker that's 20 or 30 yards short of the green. The hill adds, I'd guess, three or four clubs to the shot. I've figured that out only in retrospect, having carded a series of bogeys and double-bogeys there after mis-hitting the uphill 2nd and dumping my shot into that bunker or just over it into a chipping/collection area to the right of the green and just short of a greenside bunker (which is the only part of the hole I don't like). Otherwise, terrific hole -- to my eyes.

Of course, I could be wrong.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2001, 12:15:00 PM »
Noel,
Next time I play Shinnecock (which would be the first time), I'll let you know my opinion of #11   .

I have seen pictures of #11 and we all know how much you can see from pictures without having played it.


ForkaB

STEEPLY Uphill Par Threes
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »
I don't remember #11 Shinnecock as being particularly steep, at least from the tee.  However, from behind the green, down in Huckaby Hollow, trying to hit back up to the blind pin, now that is some sort of steep and scary shot!

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