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T_MacWood

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« on: November 22, 2001, 04:38:00 AM »
Why have there been so many successful copies of the Redan, and practically none of either the Eden or the Road hole?

Jim_Kennedy

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2001, 04:39:00 AM »
Tom,
It seems the "Redan" is much better when not blind. Its "wants" are others license.
As for the "Road", has there been a place where the same circumstances of the hole have ever been found? If there were, would it not be just a replica of the existing? What could make this hole "better"?
I would posit the same for the "Eden".
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SPDB

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2001, 04:40:00 AM »
Tom - I think that the allure of the Redan is its strategy (as CB himself penned), which does not necessarily depend on it's geographical features. The Road and Eden holes' strategies depend in large part upon their georaphical features. The Eden is backed up by nothing, making it a very a tough hole to duplicate (FI clearly is the best since it capitalizes on similar scenery and orientation). The Road of course, is hemmed in on it's right several times by the town. This hole, in my mind, is nearly impossible to "copy," and the only thing imitators would be well served to imitate are the lines of play, the green shape, and, of course, the bunker. This is all you that it's imitators strived for, and I think in that respect they succeeded.
For the Road, I think Piping Rock is CBM, SR's finest, particularly with the new tee which gives the lines of play, and strategy its similarity to the original.


SPDB

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2001, 04:41:00 AM »
reading that last post, it seems that fatigue has the better part of me. i will update when I am more lucid. This is one of my favorite subjects.

T_MacWood

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2001, 04:43:00 AM »
I had this question under another thread, and I thought it might get more attention as its own topic. I hope Jim and Sean don't mind my copying of their reponses.

aclayman

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
What comes to my mind (however simplistic) is that it's reproduction is the purest form of flattery. And why not? As stated above it is the multi-option strategy along with the penal aspect that awaits the slightest mis-cue that challenges us all.

To me, the challenges are what get the juices flowing. Maybe thats why I seem to foozle whenst long and down the middle yet can almost gaurantee birdie from the trees.  


Ran Morrissett

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2001, 05:38:00 AM »
That's easy.

The short answer is that the Redan is the most politically correct of the three.

The long answer is that two of the specific terrors of the Road Hole (OB, the road) are highly site specific. A diagonal bunker behind a green simply doesn't replicate the general nightmare of going onto a road.

As for the Eden, it requires a horizon green (which is in general rare to find inland) and a shallow green with an obscene amount of pitch. No architect would/could build that kind of pitch today given green speeds that stimp at 10-12.

Conversely, the Redan hole can be easily manufactured anywhere from nothing, with Chicago GC, Yeamans Hall, and Shoreacres being prime examples.


R.S._Barker

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2001, 06:16:00 AM »
Ran,

I agree with you about the politics and design characteristics that surround these hole designs, but I would like to say that I personally feel that more architects NEED to create courses that contain these classic designs.

Sure, it might be tough to get a green to even read 10 to 12 on the stimp meter when it's severely pitched...but itsn't that the challenge nowadays anyway ?.

How many of the PGA players get to play at a phenomenal design like NGLA or Yale for that matter...I say..let's give them an opportunity to face a real course. ( Not to say that every PGA course is not good...but I hope my point stands ).

Happy Thanksgiving,

R.S. Barker


ForkaB

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2001, 06:21:00 AM »
I have to take issue with the premise that anybody has copied (or would even want to copy!) the original "Redan."  None of the ones I have played or seen pictures of comes close to imitating the redan (fortress) characteristics of the front of the 15th at North Berwick.

A more interesting thread might be why so few archtitects other than those associated with Clan MacDonald adopted the replica theory of GCA (at least until the arrival of Tour 18 a decade or so ago ).


Paul Turner

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Rich

That's a great point about the fortress aspect, I haven't played that many Redan's but I've yet to see one (or even a picture of one) that has a really steep and high bank like the original (which you look up at on the tee).

It's about 15 years since I played Ashridge but I think it has a decent Road hole (14th).  It's about 430 yds and the tee shot only has a bunker to flirt with, instead of OB. But the green is the right shape and set at the correct angle; the road bunker is there and there's a REAL but small road(leading to houses)beyond the green. You can play off the road.


Jim_Kennedy

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2001, 07:59:00 PM »
Not at all, Tom.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Paul Turner

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2001, 08:11:00 AM »
Is the 4th at Augusta an Eden?  If so, is it a good one?

TEPaul

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2001, 08:28:00 AM »
I think this whole idea of copying holes is basically misunderstood. And of course actually attempting to duplicate or  replicate any particular hole is even more questionable.

I really don't think if you had asked  MacDonald what he was doing at NGLA and some of the other follow-up courses done by him and particularly Raynor he would say he was actually copying anything except very interesting and valid architectural concepts and probably at most only in a similar arrangement.

I think there's a huge difference between an actual attempt to copy a hole and creating architecture that could be considered a "conceptual copy" or the use of a similar theme or concept. The latter makes much more sense and requires interpretation and talent too.

A "concept copy" to me is basically offering the golfer similar strategic problems, solutions and demands. In modern lingo very similar "shot values". If the concept copy looks mostly the same, similar, not similar at all or even unrecognizable from its inspiration, it really matters not. What matters is how it works, functions, what it makes the player think and do and what the ball does.

There's certainly nothing wrong whatsoever in comparing concept copies, the so-called "copies" with so-called "originals"  or that which may be a particular hole's inspiration. I think it's quite wrong though and misleading too to critique a hole that was inspired from another as to how exact it looks to the original or inspiration--certainly including the look of what surrounds it. The question and interest should be how well does it work and play compared to the original or something from which the basic concept came.

NGLA's Redan, Road Hole and Eden work extremely well in their own setting. So do many of the others around the country to varying degrees. Piping Rock's Redan works extremely well but with some clear differences to NGLA or probably North Berwick (which I've never seen). The fact that it's higher and a bit blinder is an asset of Piping's, I feel.

Same with the Road Holes, although I've never thought that Piping's quite stood up to the others and I grew up at Piping. NGLA's Road hole is a similar green that has a similar look in shape, orientation and probably playability but the rest of the hole is different than #17 TOC and was clearly intended to be probably because of it's own unique setting.

The Road holes are likely a perfect example of what MacDonald was actually doing with his borrowing of basic concepts from Europe. This particular hole and some of the others (Road Holes) like Piping's is probably proof positive of the misunderstanding. If I'm not mistaken the Road hole is the only one of the so-called famous MacDonald "copied" holes that is not a par 3!

Piping's was actually designed as a short par 4 so it can be seen that MacDonald was creating a slightly different arrangment off a basic theme and intended to do so! As to the actual road he simply rearranged with another feature. If MacDonald thought an OB was an absolute architectural must he could have put one in, since it's not mandatory that OB be off the course's property--I know that for a fact and even my course has "false" OBs, although they are near the property lines!

Since the other famous "copied" holes are par 3s obviously the tees and the green need to be set up somewhat similarly to function correctly. But still the architects clearly  rearranged slightly off a basic theme for valid reasons. The reverse redans were simply another good example of rearrangement off a basic theme or concept. If there's an original reverse redan somewhere at North Berwick or somewhere else in Europe that preceded some of MacDonald/Raynor's, I've never heard of it.

NGLA's Eden is a marvelous hole to play--very dicey for a par 3. There's actually a ton of low margin for error aspects on it, in the approach and most particularly the front of the green! The overall slope of the green is extremely well done and significant. It may not have the same backdrop as the original or Fishers but I never felt inclined to play the backdrop and frankly never have.

Why did Raynor continue on with such close "concept copies" of so many of NGLA's famous "copied" holes? I don't know why but if I were to guess I would say because that's the way he learned the design business off of NGLA (their first course together). And Raynor was an engineer by training. Obviously MacDonald taught him well the interest and utility of clearly working off of valid, well known themes or concepts even if they were completely recognizable or recognizable pieces and parts of some original holes somewhere! Plus NGLA was a very famous course because of it's early uniqueness and they may have just decided to stamp out some relatively close variations on a theme. It's certainly possible too that when Raynor was on his own he possessed the technicial know-how but possibly not the wide "conceptual" knowledge or talent of C.B. MacDonald.

MacDonald was clearly scouring Europe for interesting architectural concepts and the fact that a few of his best known ones were par 3s probably helped create most of the fallacy that he wanted to actaully copy or duplicate original holes. He wanted to find concepts that he could use for various arrangements and even said so (I'll try to find his quote to that basic effect).

Really valid and intersting concepts and playabilities are probably a bit less numerous than we think they are and the  variations or even slight variations are really the interest. The deal is in the differences, even if they're nuancy.

Features, concepts, variations on strategies, even slight ones, surrounds, looks, they're all just the "notes" and it's in the arrangements, not in the duplication. At least that's always been my understanding even from the words of MacDonald.


BCrosby

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2001, 07:40:00 PM »
Ran -

I have never played TOC, but why is it important that an Eden hole have a "horizon" green?  Is it is essential to a successful Eden?  The Edens at Mid-O and ANGC, for example, are not horizon greens but terrific par 3's nonetheless.  Are they not Eden holes?  

Rich

I too have wondered about the replication of concept holes.  I sense you think, as I do, that there is a certain lack of imagination at work.  Ross comes close to saying something to that effect in Golf Has Never Failed Me. (I don't have the book handy for the quote.)

Pete Dye's interview on this site made fun of the approach in one of the best one word putdowns I've ever heard.  To paraphrase - Question:  What do you like most about Raynor's work?  

Dye: Variety.

Kaboom.

Perhaps we can get into this on a separate thread.  I love Raynor courses.  But they are anomalies among Golden Age courses in the sense that they are not "natural" the way a Ross or Flynn or MacK course is.  Raynor's courses reflect some clear preconceptions, and those preconcpetions were going to get built, come hell or high water, whatever the nature of the land.

Is his replication of 5 or 6 concepts a lack of imagination?   Or a higher order of understanding that these 5 or 6 concepts are so fundatmental to good course design that every good course must have them, however "unnatural" thay may appear in certain contexts?  

Was he a genius or just an engineer that built the same sturdy brdige over every river he faced?

I guess I come out voting for the latter.      


paul albanese

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2001, 08:24:00 AM »
TE Paul states it very well in his post and practically hits the nail on the head.

The term that everyone is missing in this dialogue is called "precedent" -- and it is the cornerstone of the architectural process.  In fact, those trained in architecture are taught to diligently study precedents before starting a design in earnest.  (I was berated by a critic at a final review during my graduate studies for not better documenting and understanding the precedents.)

The key to quality design is understanding the precedents, and more importantly, how these precendents may be further developed and explored to fit within the context your own vision and design intentions.  It seems to me that some architects have grasped this, and some have not.  


ForkaB

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
BCrosby (Bob?...I'm pretty sure it's not Bing....)

I agree that this concept of "concept" holes deserves its own thread.  On another one, Jeff Brauer admits that he has 12-15 templates that he brings to every course he designs.  I'd be interested in seeing how he describes his list.

I think that CB and Seth's use of their templates was fine for their day, but confuses some of us becuase of the nomenclature.  As Ran and others have said, the Eden hole at St. Andrews is pretty well un-replicatable, but some of its generic characteristics are, namely:  short hole, central hazard to be carried, sharp back to front slope, alternative approaches to the green avoiding the central hazard.  Likewise, what are called "Redan" holes are really only partial "replicas", taking the medium length one-shotter, front to back sloping/right to left angled green characteristics, and ignoring the fortress front one which gave the original its name.

My guess is that it would be more useful to think of interesting design elements rather than interesting holes.  This is to say while nobody would ever want to slavishly replicate the 18th at TOC, understanding the principles of the Valley of Sin should be in any designer's knowledge base.

Rich

PS--thanks for reminding me of the Dye interview.  GCA's high point, IMHO.


SPDB

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2001, 09:44:00 AM »
What Ran said about the feasibility of building Road and Eden holes is spot on. I guess that is what i was trying to say in my heavily compromised state.

Road - no one would let you build this type of hole today, nor could they. The idea that OB could intrude into the line of play or hover so precariously close is anathema. That being said the only thing you can do is try and create a reasonable facsimile of the strategy and some of the in-play features that the original hole possesses. This is why I think Piping's version is superlative. Tom and I have gone back and forth on this before, but I believe that the strategy and lines of play (enhanced as it has been by the new tee placed by Super-Extraordinaire Rich Spear) this particular version possesses makes it, as Ran penned, "most faithful to the original." The drive requires a dicey gamble. In Scotland it is over the Hotel shed. In L.I. it is taking a dangerous line close to the huge tree that guards the right side. A player that gambles on both sides of the atlantic will have a decidedly easier (shorter) play into the green. I also believe the green shape at PRC is of remarkable similarity (to the extent that any green can resemble TOC 17.

The only strategy difference is that the TOC-17 requires what is essentially two shot along the same line. The PRC "road" is more of a dogleg.


BCrosby

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2001, 10:00:00 AM »
Rich -

It's Bob, and Bob is embarrassed by his egregious typos in the last post.  But on to the business at hand (and fewer typos, hopefully).

I agree, the focus ought to be on design concepts and not the replication of specific holes.  The reliance on design "concepts" characterizes most great archies of the era.  MacK, Ross, Flynn had carefully thought-out ideas about how they wanted their holes to play.  All of them, I think, tried very hard not to duplicate holes that they had previously done or that they had seen done by others.  Ross says somewhere that he loved the Redan concept but he thought it showed a lack of imagination to slavishly copy the concept.  It was a pretty direct shot at Raynor.

Seems to me that you have to approach a Raynor course a little differently from courses by these other hall of famers.

Since a central part of his oeuvre is building his 4 or 5 archetype holes, you have to grade his courses on two entirely different curves.  On the one hand, you have to grade how well he did his archetype holes on a particular piece of land.  As The GCA demonstrates, this is an endlessly facscinating exercise.  His Redan at Yeamans is compared with his Redan at Yale or Fisher's Island or wherever - thread after thread after thread.  And I am prepared to believe that these holes are of the highest quality and deserve all the attention they get.

But Raymor designed other, non-archetype holes and you have to grade those  holes too.

I don't hear much talk about these "other" holes, the ones Raynor designed without his  C.B. MacDonald stencil.

Based on my limited experience with Raynor courses, my guess is that those "other" holes are just ok.  If they alone constituted the Raynor legacy, he wouldn't have anything like the reputation he has now.  I don't recall anyone ever mentioning a great hole that was original to Raynor.  

Which tells me that he was a very literal minded, very competent engineer.

Or maybe he was just a clever business man.  He had a system.  He was going to build his 4 or 5 archetype holes on every course he contracted to build.  These holes assured his clients that - whatever else happened - he would not design a bad course.  His MacDonald stencil holes were like buying a hedge against architectural disaster.

P.S.  Yeah, the Pete Dye response was terrific.  I had to read the interview twice before I picked up his sense of humor.    

 


Jim_Kennedy

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
BCrosby,
I suggest you read the George Bahto interview at this site. If you have already perused it, please do so again. There was more in Raynor's bag than 4 or 5 concept holes.

I would also ask you to think of the statement you made that several other designers "tried to not duplicate holes they had previously done or seen done by others".
Donald Ross, one of the architects you mention, is credited with approx. 400 designs. That is something like 7,000 new and fresh holes that the man put out. Whew!
I have to give him a lot more credit than I already gave him.

P.S. I guess you can tell I'm a fan of Raynor's.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2001, 04:24:00 AM »
SPDB:

I read with interest what you said about replicating in its entirety TOC's Road Hole and that to do so today would be anathema.

I'm certain you primarily mean the road itself and its extreme proximity to the green. I've certainly read that remark before many times about the anathema of totally replicating #17 TOC in that it would not be accepted today by golfers.

If you think about it that is a cute but extremely illogical statement. Basically it's really no more than a sop and cop-out due to this whole modern idea of fairness and such--which is a bit tragic, as we know, to the acceptance of some very interesting golf holes.

It's an illogical statement since TOC's Road Hole is seemingly one of the most famous and admired holes in the world! So why then would it inherently be anathema to recreate it in its entirety? If it works in Scotland in it's entirety why then could it not work somewhere else in its entirety? And I'm surely not talking about replicating the town of St. Andrew's behind and to the side of it! It's a cute statement but I'm sure you can see the basic illogic of it.

I would suggest that when it comes to MacDonald's thoughts, at least, that totally replicating the Road hole had little or nothing to do with anathema. That it had everything to do with his basic desire to take concepts and themes (or parts of them) only and do variations on them (even if they happened to look somewhat similar, like the archtype par 3s). And that it also had everything to do with simply not just replicating holes. Surely he could have done that had he wanted to and had he thought it would be all important for some reason.

It's just not imaginative or creative to replicate holes in their entirety, then or now! Such a thing completely extrapolated gets into sort of a "tennis court" syndrome! It's far more interesting to do variations on a concept or theme and MacDonald definitely was aware of that and said as much.

And that sort of gets into Piping's #8! I grew up there and the hole was a short par 4 when I was there and that's the way it was designed by MacDonald and it had its own unique strategies. We could get into speculating what the hole would have been like if MacDonald had originally been allowed to use the polo fields but the fact is he wasn't and he did what he did on #8!

Pete Dye, Tom Doak or Rich Spear can get into turning #8 into a hole much more in replica to the basic strategies of TOC's Road hole by adding that tee length and they very well may appear to make it a better hole somehow. But by doing that they have most definitely altered and changed one of MacDonald's probably intentional variations on a concept or theme.

Frankly, I liked the hole better the way it used to be. But that's really neither here nor there. But what Piping Rock should be aware of is that they messed with something that MacDonald intended to do! And he may have intended to do it the way he did simply because he thought it unimaginative and lacking in creativity to even attempt to replicate #17 they way it now is at Piping.


George_Bahto

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2001, 12:52:00 PM »
Tom Paul - I totally agree with your thinking that CB/Raynor intentionally built that hole to be that different - that is the "charm" (if you will) of their designs - the modification of the basic concept.

At first you would think the "short" road hole would be stupid but play the PR one from either of the tees and you find they are both excellent ..... add to that one of the finest example of a Road hole green you will find!!!!

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jeff_Mingay

Copying the Redan, Eden and Road
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2001, 01:49:00 PM »
What's also interesting about Macdonald's and Raynor's "copy holes" is that very few golfers recognize that fact. And I'd guess even fewer golfers recognized the Redans, Edens and Roads on Long Island and elsewhere in the USA as copied concepts early in the 20th century. Perhaps an avid reader of The American Golfer might have, but few others I presume.

It's the design concept that thrills golfers, not the fact that the concept has been borrowed from another hole. Many contemporary designers have successfully borrowed tried and proven concepts as well.

Like the moderns who've successfully done so, Macdonald and Raynor (as I understand)tried not to force their "copy holes" onto a site that wouldn't accept them. (Correct me if I'm wrong?) The Redan green at NGLA occupies a natural diagonal ridge, right?

I figure that's also one of the reasons most, if not all of Macdonald's and Raynor's "copy holes" work so well, to this day. The concept's in place, but use of the native terrain in each case differentiates each one from the others in some way.

So, it goes back to making the best use of the natural ground at your disposal, even when copying concepts.

jeffmingay.com

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