Pumpkin Ridge Lenghtening?

[peter_p]

Last week's Golfweek mentioned that Pumpkin Ridge's Ghost Creek has plans to lenghten it about 400 yds to 7200+. Anyone know the details?

[john_stiles]

The details are that everyone keeps hitting it longer; hence the need  .

[JohnV]

I believe that it was denied by one of the partners, but then last Friday, the partners were out playing a "friendly" round at Ghost Creek with Bob Cupp and David Fay among others.

[Chris Perry]

The details are that everyone keeps hitting it longer; hence the need  .

Everyone? More like pro's who consititute .000001% of the golfers out threre.

3/4 of the people who step on that course (or any other for that matter) won't even dare step on the back tees that are there already.

All it means is they are looking to host a pro event.

[Troy Alderson]

Chris,

You hit that one dead on.  Its for a Pro event, no other reason.  Pumpkin Ridge is also in the top 100, another reason to continue the tradition and try to host a tour event again.  The GC Supt. Bill Webster is in for a ride for awhile.

Troy

[peter_p]

Maybe a pro event that David Fay is interested in

[john_stiles]

Everyone is hitting it longer.

Lengthening is the 'thing' at most all courses hosting any sort of non-club tournament.  

Go watch any tournament of any sort.

Keep track of courses undergoing renovation. I have yet to hear of one course not lengthening, even though NO professional event is involved.

It is mostly for all the other 'ams'.

Have any architects been involved with substantive course work (greens, bunkers, tees) where there was not any lengthening  ?

[MargaretC]

I am speaking out of school here because we only saw a few holes of the Ghost Creek course last week.

I won't re-state my praise for Witch Hollow, but if Ghost Creek is of the same caliber, I sure hope they don't ruin it by lengthening it as other fine courses have been ruined.

I know very little about Cupp.  IMO he did a great job designing Pumpkin Ridge.  If a decision is made to lengthen either or both courses, hopefully Cupp can do so without screwing-up those gems.

Are they perfect?  Of course not, but from what I saw last week, they are way, way above average.

The obsession with course length gives me a headache.  There is so much more to the game than rocket drives off the tee.

[Peter_Herreid]

Margaret et al....

While I am not a (founding) member of PRGC, as were a couple of GCA'ers, I can speak as someone who's been on board the past 6 years...

I do like Ghost Creek quite a bit, just as it is, even with the containment/spectator mounding on some of the holes; however, it was always intended to be the "Championship" host course at Pumpkin Ridge.  As the public-access track of the two, there is some cachet attached to marketing the course as "Host of the so and so Championship, etc.", in this challenging golf economic market.  Perhaps Peter P. can speak to whether hosting the Jeld-Wen Tradition has been a boon to the Reserve or not..

Either way, I don't think it would be an architectural travesty to alter Ghost Creek in a (perhaps vain--double entendre intended) effort to win a future PGA or men's USGA event.  Whether or not you and I might think the Women's Open and Women's Am are "major" events, they are not the same thing as the men's events, in the eyes of the public, and perhaps in the eyes of prominent interests at the club...

There are actually places to pick up yardage at Ghost Creek without changing the inherent nature of the course--it is only 15 years old now anyway, and does not have the fast history of championships that Witch Hollow does, so why not consider some changes.  I can perceive that some might make for some very exciting possibilities...

However, Ghost Creek does have some things that Witch Hollow does not, and if an alteration were to eliminate those, hmmm...It has the two shortish par-4's which Witch Hollow really doesn't.  It could be argued that those could be made better, and in the end they would probably play the same for the paying public later anyway...

What I would hope would not happen might be a "Composite" course, with perhaps some resultant substantive changes to holes at Witch Hollow, or perhaps an insensitive re-working of Witch Hollow.  I suspect Bob Cupp would be involved no matter what, and I think (in this instance) that would be a good thing...

In the end, I don't think that Ghost Creek is enough of an architectural treasure, that some work, lengthening or otherwise, would automatically be a bad thing...

Peter

[MargaretC]

Peter Herreid

Your comment: In the end, I don't think that Ghost Creek is enough of an architectural treasure, that some work, lengthening or otherwise, would automatically be a bad thing...

Clearly your knowledge of Ghost Creek far exceeds mine.  My post was a knee jerk because IMO way too many courses have been ruined as a result of the pervasive obsession to lengthen golf courses.

If I wanted to spend time on a runway, I'd take-up flying.

I was impressed with Witch Hollow and what I saw of Ghost Creek because it appeared to me that Cupp made excellent use of the land.  I liked the flow -- it didn't look contrived, etc.  It's a very, very pleasant walk and held my interest.

Few, if any courses are perfect.  No doubt many courses can be improved and lengthened.  Sadly, lengthening processes, IMO, too often don't generate risk/reward improvements comensurate with the additional length.  

That's my $0.02 anyway.

[Bill_McBride]

Short par 4s are what I missed the only time I played at Pumpkin Ridge on the Witch Hollow course.