[Pete Lavallee]

I'm with Bill on this one, how can anybody rank Spyglass or World Woods above Pasatiempo?

[Keith Williams]

I think it would be pretty interesting to hear the rationale behind the popular idea of dropping The Honors.  Is there just not enough room for that many Dye designs when one considers Whistling Straits, TOC, The Golf Club, TPC, Pete Dye, Long Cove, and Harbour Town?  And this leads to something we have touched on before, how do all of these great Dye courses compare to one another?

Keith.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pete;

I like World Woods better than Pasatiempo.  I think Pasa has a really superb back nine, but thought the front is wanting in stretches.

I also think a handful of greens are not meant to be played at modern speeds, and end up being a bit silly at times.  

For instance, did ANYONE in our group of 30 two putt #18?  

Of course, you'll have to consider the fact that I have a HUGE BIAS towards Tom Fazio when I make that statement!

[Michael Dugger]

Cirba,

I'm hearin' ya on the bias thing.  You can count on one person noticing, appreciating and respecting the integrity.  


ME!

Doesn't frickin' matter who designed it.  Good is good

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, gentlemen, you failed to notice that I left World Woods in the top 50 and didn't nominate Pasatiempo.  I think they are a close call ...

Matt W:  Can't wait to see your list.  But be sure to stop short of fifty if you haven't played all of the top fifty!  And, to answer your question, you failed to notice that both Fishers Island and Camargo ARE rated above Shoreacres, but Shoreacres still makes the top 50 (whether it should be ahead of Yale, Yeamans Hall, and The Creek, I will let others debate).

Jeff B.:  Actually, the Philly six do distinguish themselves, but each with many of the same characteristics.  All of them have a great set of par-3 holes.  All of them are just a bit short for today's scratch players [Huntingdon Valley is probably a bit better on that score].  All of them fit the land like a glove [Lehigh and Manny probably the best properties].  All of them have a good set of greens [Lancaster's the wildest].  Pretty much all of them were over-treed the last I saw them.  They're all 7-point-something on the Doak scale.

Re:  Mike Strantz:  I like his work, and if I was making a list of the top 50 to be inclusive of more designers, Caledonia would be on my list [though, sadly, I have not played that one].  But I wouldn't rate it higher than Olympic or Winged Foot East or Lost Dunes, which are pretty much the hangers-on in my top 50.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike;

 I really enjoyed World Woods, I might never get to Pine Valley, but I can always go back there. Isn't Pine Barrens actually more Stranz than Fazio? Don't know if that's true, but that could explain why it's buffed out better than most of Fazio's products.

Should the architectural merits of Pasa be downgraded because the membership has a need for speed? I think those greens are a blast to putt on, just glad that I don't have to post all my scores for a handicap there. I do find it intersting that the course looses merit in your eyes because the greens have too much contour. At least you haven't started a campaign to soften their bunkers.

I would agree that it would be a joy to play on an open, treeless plain that the front nine was in the Opening Day pictures, but frankly find none of the first nine weak or wanting. I will agree that the tee shot on 7 has suffered greatly with the tree planting to keep the lawyers away, but that is still a very demanding second to a superb green site. The straight away nature of the 6th is a little dissapointing, I'm sure if it still had a bunker on it "that could hide 100 men" it would be better, but those shortcoming vanish as I pass the MacKenzie house and decide how to get a 100 yard shot close to the pin on the back tongue of the green.

[Bill_McBride]

Actually, Mike Cirba, I did 2-putt #18 at Pasatiempo, but that was after my little chip from 15 ft above the hole wound up 30' below the hole!  

[eckstein]

Here are the top 41 from 1939...

Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, NGLA, ANGC,
Timber Point, Oakmont, Merion, Riviera, Bel-Air,
Shinnecock, Mill Road, Seminole, Yale, Winged Foot,
Pasatiempo, Pinehurst #2, Lido, Oyster Harbors, Ponte Vedra,
SFGC, Garden City, Engineers, Brookline, Bethpage,
Lakeside, Hollywood, Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields, Lawsonia,
LACC, Maidstone, Scioto, Cascades, Knoll,
Chicago, Sea Island, Eastward Ho, Five Farms, Fishers Island,
Prarie Dunes

here are the 17 courses that do not appear in today’s top 50 and the courses that took their place....it is interesting how tastes have evolved....

Timber Point---------Sand Hills
Bel-Air----------------Crystal Downs
Laskers--------------Pacific Dunes
Yale--------------------Oak Hill
Pasatiempo------------Baltusrol
Lido--------------------Muirfield V.
Oyster Harbors-------Southern Hills
Ponte Vedra----------The Golf Club
Engineers-------------Whistling Straits
Lakeside--------------Camargo
Hollywood------------Medinah
Olympia Fields----------TPC
Lawsonia--------------Winged Foot-E.
Knoll-------------------Quaker Ridge
Sea Island-------------Shoreacres
Eastward Ho---------Inverness
Five Farms------------Shadow Creek

[john_stiles]

Keith,

My 2 cents is that the Honors is top 100.  However, for top 50 classic and modern,   the water holes are somewhat repetitive,  just not that interesting for a top 50.  Several greens where recovery shots  easily go over the green into the water.  Most water in play for a hook/draw.  Par 3 playing as island green with surrounding love grass and hole #7,  with the low right side, edges it out of top 50.  Difficult and fun to play, yes.   Play 7 days a week..... maybe not.  The others I would play 7 days a week.  The Honors .....  might skip a few days and play elsewhere in Chattanooga area.

This is a top 50 considering all classics and all modern.....so minor things edge it out for me.

[ForkaB]

Tom D

I see what you are trying to get at, and my philosophy is not a lot different.  When I play a new course I do try to place it with others I have played and see where it "fits" best.   In the case of Portsalon, I clearly don't see it as a 3*** course with Merion, Cypress, Portmarnock, etc., but I can see it in the 1-2*** range.  It doesn't feel wrong to have it in the same general camp as, say North Berwick, Bandon Dunes, Lahinch, Spyglass, etc.  Of course, I only do this for fun and not as a living, so I don''t mind if courses go up and down in my mind as my experiences change.

Where we do differ is in thinking that "Top 50" means something discrete.  I see it as a moveable feast.  To me there are probably about 10-20 solidly 3*** courses in the world and from 20-30 others who could aspire to the "rating."  Some years maybe there would be 40 who merited the rating, others maybe only 25, depending on maintenance practices and other aspects of long term course management.  For example, as I've said before, when I played Pinehurst #2 in 1985 it was not a 3*** course.  It probably is now.

The number are not important, but the movement in them is, and I feel that a less "granular" scale tells us more than the ones that the magazines now use.

[Mark_Fine]

Seen them all but yet to play that one in Georgia .  Nothing here is less than a 7, however, I have:

Whistling Straits
Medinah #3
Winged Foot East
Shoreacres
Bandon Dunes
Scioto
Spyglass Hill
World Woods
Ocean Forest
Cascades
Cherry Hills

all below these courses on my personal favorites list:  

Desert Forest
Galloway National
Kapalua Plantation
Lehigh
Olympia Fields North
Peachtree
Pete Dye GC
Plainfield
Somerset Hills
Valley Club of Montecito
Victoria National
Wannamoisett

I could list another 75 or more courses that I've played in the U.S. that I would say are 7 or so (comparable to those in the first list above).  

Mark

[Joel_Stewart]

For instance, did ANYONE in our group of 30 two putt #18?  

I 1 putted

My choices are

OUT
Medinah
Spyglass
Baltusrol
World Woods

IN
Friars Head
Pacific Dunes
Yale
Pasatiempo

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, Joel, Pacific Dunes is already in there. :)

Mark Fine is leader in the clubhouse for going furthest out on a limb.  Most surprising to me were Victoria National, Peachtree, Desert Forest, and Olympia Fields North.  Of course I haven't actually played the first two, and it's been 22 years almost to the day since I played Olympia Fields.

I noticed that all of the magazines were dissembling about how Olympia Fields has become Open-worthy and moved steadily up their top 100 lists.  Which came first, chicken or egg -- the Open recognition or the improved votes?  (I think the former.)

[michael_j_fay]

Throw out The country Club (which in fact does not exist most of the time. Replace it with Salem. I have never understood the panache of Baltusrol (Upper or Lower), send it out and put in either Plainfield or Wannamoisett. Scioto is an able yet scatalogical design which is easily eclipsed by Holston Hills. Medinah # 3 is too hard, too repetitive and frankly no fun to play. For a better game on a better course I would head to Skokie.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

At your request, I will respond.

Out: Oakland Hills
In: Kingsley Club - Kingsley is infinitely more interesting than Oakland Hills and I really believe is this good.

Out: World Woods
In: Victoria National - Victoria is extremely challenging and very good.  Fazio's effort at World Woods is solid but lacks the flare of Victoria.  This race is a blowout IMO.

Out: Harbor Town
In: Ocean Course at Kiawah - They are similar but the overgrowth of housing and the comparable lack of challenge on the greens makes the Ocean Course a clear winner.

Out: Spyglass Hill
In: Kapalua Plantation - I am one of the few people who does not get the love affair with Spyglass.  It is a very good course and worthy of top 100 but lacks the challenge, character, and visual appeal of Kapalua (Which I believe is the second most underrated course in the country).

Out: Medinah
In: Pete Dye Golf Club - This is not meant as a slight to Medinah.  I just cannot accept a top 50 without the course I consider Pete Dye's best US effort.  The golf club is pure, the routing awesome and it might have the best "Walk In The Park" feel of any course in the Midwest.

I have never played Winged Foot East, Cascades, Ocean Forest, Somerset or Cherry Hills, so I am not disagreeing with others who have removed them, just playing by the rules.  I will be curious as to your thoughts

David

[Mark_Fine]

Baltusrol Lower is improving with the removal of trees.  I used to feel the same way about it as some here.  However, if you haven't played it in the last six months to a year you need to before stating your opinion.  The changes are not nearly as drastic as Oakmont, but they are good!  I moved it from a 7 to an 8 after my last visit.  Greensites have been opened up and the course is looking good!  

[ed_getka]

I haven't played many of the courses I suspect could be replaced, but I know Kingsley Club is in and Spyglass is out. Bandon out, Plainfield in; this one is close but if I had to pick one to play the rest of my life Plainfield gets the nod of those two.

[David Kelly]

Out:
Medinah #3 - I guess it stays so high on the lists because it is the epitome of a long, tight and difficult golf which for many people is the main criteria for greatness (see Firestone).

Spyglass Hill - really like the course, really love being there but I am always surprised it is as high as it is. Seems like a consensus pick to drop on here.

Harbour Town - haven't played it since the greens were rebuilt and some of the trees trimmed.

In:
Blackwolf Run
Pasatiempo
Long Cove Club

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - you are right about Cascata.  The property is hilly enough for some holes to suffer distortion, especially on the front.  The course is unwalkable, which is another detraction.  But the esthetics are about as good as it gets.  It is unspoiled, peaceful and starkly beautiful.  To a man, our group of 16 or so thoroughly enjoyed the experience.  I still put it at the top of the list for Rees courses I have played.  I have not played OK and will on your high recommendation.

What am I missing with The Bridge?  Klein arranged with Rees for 16 of us to visit Atlantic last summer during the Open week.  A number of us played The Bridge. too.  To a man, we were much more taken by Atlantic.  The Bridge was a tough walk, lacked memorability and was more a one-sided test of distance - hit it this far or pay.  On the other hand, we found a better variety at Atlantic - some very hard and very easy holes.  It was a pleasant walk and more a course keeping in character with the neighbors (heathland-like).

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

I appreciate your candor -- particularly on Cascata. However, you need to play Wolf Creek in Mesquite to see imagination and daring in design. I also believe once you play Olde Kinderhook you'll drop Cascata like a second round date!

Jonathan -- you're placing way too much emphasis on the "walk in the park" category. Look at the shot values that are required at Atlantic and The Bridge. Look at how the course ebbs and flows at a number of points throughout the round. Try to broaden the assessment from just a narrow perspective. Golf is about shots too and the wherewithal of the player to have the greatest range of skill in their use. In that area The Bridge does quite well indeed.

I would not include The Bridge among my personal top 50 because a number of other candidates have emerged recently.

I'll post the listing later today as I'm traveling enroute to Pinehurst and then Charleston for the holiday get away.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I do not think Cascata is top 50 material but I am with Jonathan that it is top 100, is the best Rees I have seen and is a very worthy and strategic golf course.  I think that you and I need to arrainge a Vegas trip ASAP, do you can see it through my eyes.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm shocked anyone on this site would like Cascata, I thought it was a terrible waste of $40 million dollars.  You either play up hill or down hill, not one hole is significant, the bunkering is boring, the green sites flat, and with all of that water it doesn't even play a significant role in the course?  If they routed the first hole to play up the 18th then you might have the start of something interesting.

[Willie_Dow]

mif

Concur with your thoughts on TCC & Baltusrol Lwr.  Where is Kittansett?  Its my favorite, right now! (Thanks to Gil and Bill).  I also go with Wannamoisett

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I was curious with respect to your selection of Somerset Hills as one of your top 50.

This is a golf course that you gave a "7" in "The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses".

Nothing has changed at Somerset Hills over the years with the exception of the upgrade to the miniscule men's locker room.

So why does it now merit top 50 status ?

I like the golf course, but top 50 ??

I think a number of courses would have a legitimate shot at replacing it, including nearby Plainfield and Hollywood, and YALE and Friar's Head which are not so far away.

Again, I'm curious as to what changed your mind and elevated Somerset Hills to top 50 status.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  I haven't seen Somerset Hills since the Curtis Cup (whenever that was), and I haven't played it in 20+ years.

But I still remember nearly all of the greens!!

I'll grant that there are a handful of less-than-stellar holes, and that it's closer to the bottom of the top 50 than the top.  But I looked at the list and didn't think I wanted to throw it out.

P.S.  Part of the "7" was based on the fact that it was in pretty rugged shape way back when.  I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

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