[Dunlop_White]

"North Carolina Business" Magazine publishes an annual list of  Top 100 designs in North Carolina (note: there are more than 700 courses in the state). Unfortunately, these rankings typically are published the same week as the Golfweek rankings. As such, these rankings tend to trump the GW rankings not only because of their regional impact but also because of the large number listed. It seems to be the encyclopedia in this area.

The NC panel of more than 100 is comprised of business executives, college golf coaches, sports writers, golf professionals, top amateurs, and gold industry leaders. The criteria are listed below: 1. Aesthtics  2. Conditioning
3. Routing  4. Flow  5. Strategy  6. Variety  7. Memorability  8. Design Elements  9. Fairness  10. Overall experience.

Below are the 2003 results:

1. Pinehurst No. 2
2. Old North State
3. Pine Needles
4. CCNC (Dogwood)
5. Grandfather
6. Charlotte CC
7. Linville Golf C
8. Elk River
9. Pinehurst No. 4
10. Pinehurst No. 8
11. Forest Creek
12. Quail Hollow  
13. Mid Pines  
14. Wade Hampton
15. Pinehurst National  
16. Biltmore Forest
17. Treyburn
18. Tanglewood  
19. CCNC (Cardinal)
20. River Landing
21. Landfall (Dye Course)
22. Finlay
23. Governor's Club
24. Tiger's Eye
25. Duke Univ.  
26. Sedgefield CC
27. Tobacco Road
28. Pinehurst No. 7
29. Pinewild
30. Mid South Club
31. Linville Ridge
32. Old Chatham
33. Anderson Creek
34. Willow Creek CC
35. Grandover (East)
36. Mt. Mitchell
37. The Point Lake
38. TPC at Piper Glen
39. Ballantyne
40. Bald Head Island
41. Porter's neck
42. River Run CC
43. Bermuda Run CC  
44. The Old Town Club  
45. River's Edge
46. Gaston CC
47. Legacy
48. Crow Creek
49. Cape Fear CC
50. Brier Creek CC
51. Myers Park CC
52. Forest Oaks
53. Mimosa Hills
54. MacGregor Downs
55. Eagle Point  
56. Hope Valley
57. Forsyth CC
58. Champion Hills
59. Raleigh CC
60. Tot Hill Farms

I disagree with a large portion of the list. At No. 55, I believe Eagle Point is the best Fazio design in the state though I often cannot tell them apart.

While Wade Hampton is No. 14 in the "State" to this panel, they are No. 11 (modern) in the "Country" to Golfweek. Explain?

Quail Hollow evidently moves into the Top 12 as a result of hosting the Wachovia Cup, a brand new PGA event in Charlotte?  Similarly, Tanglewood's No. 18 ranking must be a product of the PGA and the Vantage Championships years back.

Old Town Club at No. 44 is a joke.....an automatic Top 6.

Roaring Gap Club is not in the Top 100?? Wow!  Its one of the most preserved, original Ross designs anywhere, plus there is no better setting.

Underrated: Mimosa Hills, Raleigh CC, and Wilmington Muni (also not ranked)

CCNC (Cardinal) must have been propelled by Art Hills renovation. Check out the masterful work with the drainage. Catch basins are everywhere.

Linville Golf Club is a hidden gem and this panel found it! Good job!


 

[Brad Klein]

Obviously, this list is the product of voter manipulation, propaganda, cushy outings, behind-the-scenes favoritism, and those who comprise the voters are unable to make independent judgments because they are all trying to favor their own self-interest in the balloting. Besides, as we know, advertisers drive the whole process anyway - with even the cover photo for sale, so the thing lacks any integrity and those who organize it can't be trusted.

Right, Dunlop?
.

  

[jim_lewis]

I have refrained from commenting on the NC Business Magazine's rankigs until now. In my view their annual ranking is a complete joke. I have played most of the courses on their list, and several that deserve to be. I also am acquainted with many of their raters. The basic problem is that all of the raters are from NC and almost all are members of one or more clubs in the state.  They may have their own interests to protect or promote, either deliberately or subconsiously. They also seem to have a case against some of the more exclusive, high-rent clubs like Roaring Gap, Eagle Point, Wade Hampton, and Old Town.  I have often stated that I think Wade Hampton is overrated, but to suggest that it is the 14th best course in NC is rediculous. Most of the NC raters have never been inside the gate at WH. Maybe they resent the fact that they are not welcome. Any ranking that excludes Roaring Gap from the top 60 is not worth the time to read it or the effort Dunlop took to list them. I was once approached about becomeing a rater for that publication. I would not care to be associated with it. The best way to rate courses in any state is to have them rated by people from outside the state.

[JakaB]

Dunlop,

I would suggest that if you don't have the ability to tell one Fazio design from the next you resign as a Golfweek rater.  I don't care if you don't enjoy any of Fazio's work...as a matter of fact I think it is good for the rating process to have different opinions.  I know you are not ignorant in the most basic sense...so I must question your agenda for proclaiming to be so ignorant about basic architectural constraints that face each individual process.  Forgive me if you were just trying to be funny at the expense of the good people who work in the Fazio organization and your fellow raters who take their privilage seriously.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

John
A little sensative aren't we? He seems to me he saying Eagle Point underrated and the same with Wade Hampton.

'Trying to be funny at the expense of the good people of the Fazio organization', what are you talking about....especially from a guy has made his reputation trying to be funny at the expense of himself and everything else on this site. Of all the things said about Fazio on this site, your reaction is a little strange.

From my viewpoint Dunlop White has been one of the most honest, informative and open minded persons on GCA. I don't recall him ever making a negative comment, and his few criticisms have always been thoughtful and fair.

[JohnV]

Lets not get too down on these rankings.  At least they got #1 right, which is more than Golf Digest did in their last ranking of the top 100.

[Scott_Burroughs]

What do I find most surprising?  That JakaB actually revealed himself after hiding it for so long, despite the fact that most of us regulars already knew who he was.

As for the list, well of course we're not going to like much of this.  What else is new.

My comments:

Old North State at #2?  No freakin' way.  Memorability is a component of this ranking and I pride myself on being able to remember almost every hole from all 258 courses I've played, but I can only remember about 5 holes from ONS.

I think Tanglewood at #18 isn't too far off.  It's nice to hit long irons once in awhile for approach shots and I don't mind aerial-dominated course once in a while.


Omissions I think deserve to be there that I've played:

Oyster Bay
Southern Pines
The Pit


Omission I think doesn't deserve to be there that I've played but am surprised it's not there:

Currituck Club (same problem as ONS, I only remember a handful of holes. I remember a lot more at Nags Heads down the road.  Also Currituck is in the high-rent district of the Outer Banks where I'm sure top execs have 2nd homes)


Omissions I haven't played but am surprised are not present based on what I've heard form others whose opinions I value:

Alamance CC
Highlands
Starmount Forest


Omission I haven't played but am surprised is not present just because of it's location and supposed beautiful views that would wow this panel:

Trillium Links


Dunlop,

Is this list online somewhere?  I'd like to see the other 40.

[JakaB]

Tom,

Dunlop says "I believe Eagle Point is the best Fazio design in the state though I often can not tell them apart."

My question is why can't an expert "often tell them apart"...I think once you accept the responsibility of being a rater...with the privilage comes responsibility.   There is a price to everything and I believe...this may be the price of being a rater...If he wishes to be just another idiot making blanket statements about architects...he should resign...simple.

I'm going to play golf....this is only the second time I have signed my name to a post...so you decide if I am serious or not.

Call me...I'll be alone on the course...otherwise I would not answer.
Mobile..812-890-9628

[Scott_Burroughs]

I forgot I was going to mention that I've played 20 of the 60 listed above.

[Dunlop_White]

Oh my, this must be the day of personal attacks. At least I have your name and your phone number. Thanks for not being anonymous!

JakaB, I never said I was a rater, nor do I plan to resign from anything at your request.

I enjoy Tom Fazio himself, and I like his courses. But there are not many architects today, if any, who have a more recognizable signature than Tom. He typically creates a dished-out look of the ground features, and his golf holes tend to appear all in front of you, nothing too quirky or decieving, mainly because of his propensity of shaping vertical depth into terrain, especially the landing areas. Many holes at one Fazio course, therefore, remind me of many holes at other Fazio courses.

Fazio himself has admitted that this characterization does not bother him in the least, so why should it bother you? Regardless of my ignorances, no one deserves to be called idiot on this site.

(336) 972-2856

[Bill Gourney]

I have kurked here for quite some time and have noted that Dunlop White's comments do not even approach the vindictive and personal attacks of the likes of Tommy Nacarrato and redanman towards the Fazio group.

JakaB, why jump Dunlop when others have been spewing hate and vile for years?

[JakaB]

I like this leaving phone numbers as an indication of not being afraid of what you said...people who make blanket statements about other people are racists...people who make blanket statements about architecture are idiots...blankets fan the fires of idiocy.  

Bill,

As for BillV and TommyN...an old friend told me...and he was speaking about me when he said it..."You can't insult an idiot"...meaning don't even try.

I said something once to BillV that was uncalled for and to this day I feel bad about it...I think now that I understand him better I could be friends with him if he ever could forgive me...but I doubt that I am worth the effort.

TommyN is as Tommy does we know Tommy and love him...he gets a pass because he is Tommy...it happens this way in the real world all of the time.

I just expect better out of Dunlop....and no I don't have internet access on my golf cart...so I've got to be going.

[Bill Gourney]

Understood.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Just snagged the remaining 40:

61. The Challenge
62. Landfall (Nicklaus)
63. Peninsula Club
64. TPC at Wakefield Plntn
65. Mill Creek
66. Sea Trail (Jones)
67. Cardinal CC
68. Carolina National
69. Heritage Club
70. Pinewood CC
71. The Preserve
72. Trillium Links
73. Catawba
74 Bryan Park (Champions)
75. Hound Ears
76. Pinewild (Holly)
77. The Pit
78. Grandover (West)
79. Farmstead
80. Carlson farms
81. Jefferson Landing
82. Southern Pines
83. Verdict Ridge
84. Thistle
85. Magnolia Greens
86. Starmount Forest
87. Asheville
88. Birkdale
89. Rocky River
90. Carmel CC
91. Alamance
92. Marsh Harbour
93. Highlands Cove
94. Etowah Valley
95. Boone
96. Nags Head
97. Currituck
98. Blowing Rock
99. Tillery Tradition
100. The Neuse

I've played 9 of these remaining 40.

For those curious, here's the panel for the rankings:

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/golf2002.panelists.htm

and even more detail:

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/Directory.htm

the ratings sheet:

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/Course.rating.sheet.2002.pdf

the bylaws:

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/blyaws.htm

the history:

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/history.htm

schedule of last years outings, which just happen to coincide with almost all of the new courses that made the list   :

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/schedule.htm

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/new.courses.2002.htm

can't say they don't disclose almost everything.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Dunlop,

Glad to have your phone number. I was going to offer to trade a round at Old Town (#44) for a round at CCC (#100), but CCC fell off the list (no big shock).  

Has Hart contacted you about CCC's golf plans.  I know we are in the process of exploring course renovations to be as little are re-grassing the greens, minor tee box adjustments and tree trimming to a fairly major overhaul.  I know we could benefit from someone with your knowledge of both course design and local flavor to help educate our committee and board. I am not sure if their is any $'s available but we could work in some food, booze and golf.  Hope all is well and keep your head down.  

[A.G._Crockett]

I haven't lived in NC for 23 yrs. now, and though I still have family there and get back for a few weeks every year, I haven't played many of the courses in this list.

That said, the ranking of Finley (UNC) as #22 calls the whole list into suspicion as to the criteria used.  The results of the redesign of Finley is one of the great disappointments of my golf life, and there a 14 courses listed BELOW Finley that I have played that I think are clearly better courses, and a number of others not ranked that are at least its equal.  I have never heard anyone compare Finley favorably to Duke, for instance, and I find it hard to imagine any rating system could justify this order.  That's a tough thing for an old Tarheel to write, but I think its true in this case.

Like most such lists, the appearance of subjectivity is really, really hard to get away from.  They might be fun to look at, but are fairly worthless otherwise.

[Bryan_Pennington]

A.G.

I could not agree more with your opinion of Finley.  What an opportunity missed.  Much to my amazement (and employers dismay), I have played 47 of 100 courses.  I think name recognition is a critical component of how the course is rated and who is picked as a rater.  This list is fun to review but should not be taken to seriously.  

[Dunlop_White]

Sure, I will assist you or Hart any way I can regarding a potential renovation at CCC. Just curious, does CCC have any room behind their current tees for extension?

[Bryan_Pennington]

#'s 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 14, 16, and 17.  #4 is already 220 from the tip so I can not see extending much further.  #5 could go back 20 yards (towards Glenwood Ave.).  #6 has 20+ yards.  #9 could go back and up the hill 15 - 25 yards.  #11 probably only 10 yards max.  #14 could go back to the street (20 - 25 yards).  #16 could go back 20 more yards but already 440+ into the prevailing wind. #17 has minimal room to move back.

If #7 green was moved past the existing green site, #8 box would need to moved (shorten the hole).  #10 green could be moved to the far side of the creek which would open new tee locations for #11.  

There is not much land, but some changes could create additional length.  As best I can guess, we could squeeze 400 yards onto the course bringing the total from the tips to 6400 (keep in mind we have 6 par 3's).  I will ask Hart to contact you for your thoughts and schedule.  

[Coral_Ridge]

Years ago I remember reading about a resort in NC near Cashiers that was rustic and scenic.  The George Cobb golf course was just over 6000 yards and its' signature hole was number 8, I believe.  A short par-3 over some water, with a rock faced mountain in the background.  Does this course still exist?  Back in the sixties it was frequently advertised in GD, etc...

[Paul Richards]

Personally, as long as Pinehurst #2 is first on the list, then it does have some merit.

[jim_lewis]

Coral Ridge:

I think you are referring to High Hampton Inn and CC which is located just down the road from Wade hampton in Cashiers. The inn and the course still exist. I have had dinner at the Inn but never played the course. There is a story about the course that goes something like this.  The original developer back in the 1920's hired an architect to build the course. Only 12 holes were built when the developer decided that he had spent all he wanted to on a golf course. When he ordered a halt to the project, the architect protested that there was no 12 hole course anywhere in the world. The developer reportedly declared "There is now.". The course remained 12 holes until it was completed by George Cobb, probably in the 1960's.  I don't know if the story is true, but that's the way I recall hearing it.

[Coral_Ridge]

Thanks for the information Jim.  I just searched out this site.  http://www.carolinamountains.com/golf/no07.html

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