[Matt_Ward]

It seems from an observation from deep left field that much of the GW ratings seems to place an emphasis on quirk. I've heard this from a few people who serve as raters for GW. Clearly, the ratings from GD emphasize this element less so.

I've been accused (sometimes rightly) of downplaying quirk and how it can come to mean a good deal of course quality. Can someone provide to me a short defintion (please Tom Paul -- no long dissertation) and where you place it in asessing the merits (or lack thereof) of any course you play.

Can quirk take away from shot fairness? How does it add to the overall qualities of shot values which I place a good deal of weight upon?

I believe quirk has a role, but I'd like to know just how much is appropriate (cite examples) and how much is overdone and falls into the column of gimmick and tricky.

In my mind, I can see the quirk in a few holes at NGLA and therefore as great as the layout is would not place it on the same level as SH which I consider to be America's finest course for all levels of players. I look forward to hearing from the denizens of GCA. Thanks!

[A_Clay_Man]

I was thinking reading your post that I probably call character what some call quirk. Or do you mean it in a more specialized sense? Or is that the excersixe to find out what each of defines as quirk.

 Since most people are GCA clueless, any movement in the land that I consider character would be called by some quirk.

I only ask so that the thread doesn't degenerate for 6 pages before we decide what it is we are talking about.

As some sort of control I would postulate that Torrey pines south has little character ergo little quirk.

[Bob_Huntley]

For the life of me, I cannot now remember the hole number at Cruden Bay of the quirkiest quirk of a par three I've ever played. A genuine dog leg that succumbed to a scruffy hooked worm burner that finished close to the hole. If there is a quirkier hole I wish someone would tell me about.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- Agreed it works and for a variety of reasons. Pun intended

The easiest example of both character and quirk is the cliff on #8 at Pebble.
That didn't turn out too bad.

[cary lichtenstein]

Is quirk the 2 consecutive blind holes on the front 9 at Lahinca? 4 and 5?

[Matt_Ward]

I wonder if it's really more of an element of how the definition is "spun."

For example, if you say the word "character" there's few people who would say such an element within a course is weakness.

Flip that around and substitute the word "quirk" and you then lose a number of people because it introduces some element of luck beyond what one considers appropriate. Just as I mentioned before there's a fine line between appropriate "quirk" and the silliness that befalls the twin words of gimmick and tricky. Although I know there are those who post here on GCA who absolutely love the uncertainty of quirk and think it's underdone by many so-called modern designers. I often think that those who rely solely on quirk" are quick to point this out, however, sometimes these same people minimize the necessity of straightforward shotmaking demands.

Shivas mentioned that quirk is an "anachronism in modern golf design" -- can someone further define that and use examples from some of the top rated courses listed by GW. Is a "quirk" just something relating to modern design? I've played a fair number of older courses where quirk is a big part of the layout and in that same line of thinking these type of courses would be defined by a great number as being classic because of the inclusion of quirk.

I know it would help me better understand if I'm missing out in including this element in future course evaluations. Far too often I've often viewed quirk as trickey beyond what is appropriate in determining sound and unsound shot values. Yet, I still need to know what role is appropriate for quirk before it descends into the kind of goof ball designs and requirements that turn me off quite frankly.

[Michael Moore]

I'm a rater! I have been asked to weigh in on the top 100 public in New England by a local publication - better watch what I say from now on . . .

To me, quirk means large, severe features - natural, bulldozed, whatever. Charleston #11 and Friar's Head #10 are recently discussed examples. I associate quirky with fun, as in who the hell knows what might happen to your ball if it gets caught up in the quirk. Quark? Black hole?

By far the quirkiest holes I played last year were the par fives at Eastward Ho!  The fairways were like some sort of crazy distorted perspectiveless Picasso drawings. Just massive landforms falling every which way. Unbelievable.

Are large and severe features unfair? Big time. But I don't think that the general impact of these features on "shot values" can be evaluated.

PS - I dearly want to deride "shot values" as a silly and meaningless term, but I think deep down it is meaningful, and I think that deep down I value shot values!! What the hell are they?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael Moore:

I would define shot values as the wherewithal of a course to demand the fullest array of expertise with the greatest number of clubs in your bag. I would say shot values call upon the golfer to blend power, accuracy and finesse and the wherewithal to work the ball as necessary (high and low, left and right) on command when called upon for that particular situation.

How does quirk fit in with that in mind.

P.S. Your example of Eastward Ho is a good one. The rumpled fairways and edginess of the course is indeed well done and the "quirk" there clearly adds to the overall experience.

[williamlangford]

I think I defined quirk in the 1920's.  Go see Culver or Maxinkuckee, thats quirk.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
In carpentry a quirk is the groove that separates the beading on moldings or the area that separates one part of a molding from the other. That can be translated into golf architecture by considering what the quirk does. It not only goes contrary to what is happening in the piece, i.e. a groove when we are expecting a bead, it also serves to highlight or accentuate the beaded surface.

I remember customers viewing an exquisite profile cut onto a piece of molding and commenting on the beading and the high areas. They overlooked the area between the beads, the
quirk, and that's what made the whole piece more interesting.
Hardly anyone saw the importance of the quirk.

p.s. I'm modifying this post to add the following.
In the "old" days of construction highly patterned moldings were cut by hand using special two-person planes. Modern machinery changed this but these moldings were still made as highly patterned (lots of quirks) with less manual labor, a definite plus for several reasons. In the 1950's came the advent of less profiled moldings, like clamshell. These were cheap to crank out and easy to install compared to the highly detailed moldings. Manufacturers literally took the quirk out of the molding and made a functional but dull product.
I hope you find the comparison worthwhile.

[Neal_Meagher]

Mr. Huntley,

You are referring to #15, Blin' Dunt.  A 239 yard blind par 3 where one aims over the marker pole halfway up on the dune which rises to the left.

[TEPaul]

To me the idea of quirk in golf architecture is a bit like what some of us used to call the crooked dimensions (floors, doors, windows etc) of some of the old Pennsylvania Colonial houses around here. Some thought of that type of thing as potential problems, inconvenience, odd, unmodern etc, but we used to call it "charm".

That's what "quirk" is to me in golf architecture. It's a lot like the "charm" of some of those old houses.

[Michael Moore]

Mr. Ward -

Good definition of shot value.

If may condense your definition to "a variety of situations that require a variety of good shots to negotiate," then quirk seems to be a key factor here. Take that picture of Charleston #11. The size of the bunker necessitates a certain degree of execution on the tee shot. Should you arrive in it, the depth of the bunker requires an unusual recovery shot that you don't see every day.

Large and severe features are likely to be encountered and likely to provide a variety of challenges.

This goes for the putting surfaces as well, see Friar's Head #9, Biarritz, etc.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Quirk is the wild land formations at Eastward Ho! and Cape Breton. The back to back short par-4s at Cypress Point. The bizarre short par-4 at Franklin Hills with green a top a volcano and the 10th at Shinnecock. The quirky greens at Canton Brookside, Winged Foot or ANGC.

Quirk is the result of a layout that fits the land. If you maximise an interesting site, you are bound to end with some quirk. Nature is quirky. Wethered and Simpson in forming their ideal eclectic golf course insisted in including a 'bad' hole. 'Bad' meaning unconventional or quirky. They understood that entire layout benefited from having holes that were odd, it added to the adventure of the golfing experience. They were used to plenty of quirk on the old links (the models for the entertaining greens at Canton and WF) and knew it contributed to the fun. They felt ideal course must have a touch of quirk.

A golf course should not be a collection of 'great' golf holes, that type of course come off as artificial, forced and ultimately less interesting.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I'll attempt brevity and clarity;

Quirk is uniqueness.  

Quirk is originality.

Quirk is fun.

Quirk is inspiring.

Quirk is uplifting.

Quirk is uncertainty.

Quirk is inconsistency.

Quirk is ambivalence.

Quirk is natural.

Quirk is passionate.

Quirk is subject to fortune.

Quirk causes consternation.

Quirk causes confusion.

Quirk causes frustration.

Quirk is dynamic.

Quirk is exciting.

Quirk is unpredictable.

Quirk is unsettling.

Quirk is unfair.

Quirk causes conflict and ironically, cohesion between man and his environment.

Quirk is GOLF.  

[GeoffreyC]

Matt- To me quirk is also something that simply goes against any set formula.  Features that are unexpected, unusual not predictable. It is generally site specific and therefore memorable.  This to me is very different then "character" as many fantastic courses (your example of Winged Foot or even our much loved Bethpage) have great character but lack quirk.

It has nothing to do (IMHO) with shot values or difficulty but certainly doesn't preclude them.

Others pointed out Cruden Bay already but to me the 14th (not the 15th or blind par 3 16theither) with its sunken living room green is the ultimate quirk. How about the stretch of 14-16?

I like Tom Paul's definition as well.

[RJ_Daley]

I have been hard pressed to define quirk.  I think we have had threads in the past, attempting to get a handle on quirk.  

It is sort of like the Supreme Court Justice stated about porno, "I know it when I see it".  

Quirk most often is found on older courses.  It is that oddity that just didn't fit quite with the rest of the theme, or presentation that the architect was offering, usually due to a unique feature of the land, that caused a brainstorm for the designer to think outside the box and work around or inspite of a particular problem.  It may be an isolated terrain feature, and obstacle, or a space problem, or a need to do something odd to cope with a soil or drainage problem.  In any case, it caused a departure from conventional wisdom and so constructing a golf hole still presents the player with the oportunity to also depart from conventional wisdom if they choose, and still play the hole within the context of the game.  Quirk adds an element of discovery and excitement to deal with something different.

With 20,000 or whatever golf courses, and most of them following some basic principles of conventional wisdom in construction techniques and design themes, it becomes a test to even distinguish one designer from the next.  But, when we encounter quirk that is not outrageous and beyond the bounds of the game where a designer coped with it in a clever manner and when that quirk makes us think and amuses, then it will set the course that it is found on, apart.  That bodes well for that particular course's recognition in the  ratings game, I think.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Quirk is the mole on Marilyn's cheek. Without it she was created too perfectly and would not be so interesting. It's imperfection, yet with a reason and attraction that cannot always be explained. The unknowing person, given the chance to "design" a Marilyn, would have not thought of a mole. he would subscribe to a formula that was beauty without randomness or -- quirk.

[Dan King]

Matt Ward writes:
Can quirk take away from shot fairness?

It can. It depends on each golfer.

How does it add to the overall qualities of shot values which I place a good deal of weight upon?

It doesn't necessarily add or subtract, it is another test for a golfer. By placing more weight on quality of shot you end up ignoring half of the test golf should be about.

To me quirk is something that tests you mentally. Blindness is a cool quality of quirk. Features that fill the mentally weak golfer with doubt are great quirk features.

Part of the reason that quirk has fallen out of favor is because so many American golfers believe golf is only a physical test.

Many who minimize the necessity of quirk are people who can't handle the mental aspect of the game, usually people who lose their cool because of the unfairness inherent in the game.

If golf is just a physical test what are all of you doing clogging up courses. If the game is just about the shots, go perform at a driving range. Instead of matches on the course, play horse on the practice faculty. Leave the courses for those of us that understand that nature isn't always equitable and love that about the game.

How much quirk is appropriate? It depends on a lot of things. How many dogleg lefts are appropriate? How many holes that favor any specific shot are appropriate? Too many rules make course design formulaic.

But good golf courses should have a mix of holes that favor a variety of shots and a variety of mental tools. You don't want to favor someone that hits right to left just like you don't want to favor someone who can't handle blindness, or misfortune, or unfairness.

A good course should test a large variety of physical and mental skills. By only judging the physical tests, you are missing half of the qualities of a golf course.

Dan King

"So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play."
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[ForkaB]

To me, quirk is the feature or the totality that makes you go "Wow!, or just "wow...."  I think the "quirk" that factors into "ratings" like those of GW are more related to ambience (Blind Jimmy the 97-year old shoeshine boy, the first tee that JP Morgan used to invariably slice from, the bunker that Gentle Ben found while taking a pee in the raspberry bushes, the flagsticks, the shower heads and the turtle soup) than to the quality of the golf course itself.

As to Dan's CB quote, is this not in complete contradiction to the "Tufts Bible," which Tom Paul tells us guides the rules, and which--if I remember correctly--is based on the legal principle of "equity?"

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I'm in Dick Daley's camp. I don't know how to define quirk, but I know it when I see it.

My favorite example - and one of my favorite places in golf - would be Dooks. The famous #13 is the most obvious example. You can hit the middle of the green and still four putt very easily. I also like #17, a flat almost featureless 300 yard par four that somehow proves to be a little tricky due the to slight depressions near the green.

The nice thing about quirk is that it casts "fairness" aside. Golf architecture oftens plenty of fairness and it is nice to find a course or golf holes that just make you walk away laughing to yourself. How else can you deal with your playing partner laughing it you?

[Rick_Noyes]

I can't remember if I read it in Colt and Allison or Donald Ross, but the term "whimsy" was used I believe to describe "quirk".
I like some of the definitions above, but often "quirk" has a negative connotation as if something about the hole is just not quite right.  "whimsy" seems more light hearted.

Rick

[Forrest Richardson]

Quirk is also honest. Manufactured quirk is much along the lines of the re-created diner with its blue-plate specials, tacky signs and rude waitresses -- although none of it authentic. Disney is rarely quirk, but it approaches so every once in a while.

[Dr Brief]

Matt Ward,

Quirk is a short post from Tom Paul

[A_Clay_Man]

So far we at two pages and the definition is now even more confusing.
Perhaps the definition comes with the inflection when spoken?

The 4th green @ Spy is quirky, but in a good way, when on the 18th and one HAS to hit 5 iron 5 iron thats quirky in a bad way.

I still tend to split hairs and say that the 5i 5i is quirk where the green at Spy has character.

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