[Jeremy_Glenn.]

their casual ignorance of history, their present arrogance with current events and their whoring mentality just annoys me something fierce...

slapper,

I'm actually surprised you responded to defend your previous statement, which is in my opinion perhaps even more offensive than the original post.

But this is a discussion group on GCA.  Please keep it that way and refrain from political slurs,  accusing an entire nation of the very offense you seem to be guilty of yourself.

This is all I'll say on the matter.

[Bill Overdorf]

mdugger: I really don't know that I should chime in at this point. However---Since all of that which has gone before is opinion-based I don't have major reservations about voicing mine in this thread.

When the full 18 at Aspen Lakes was opened for play by invitation, I found myself in a position that precluded playing but I had an opportunity to accompany one Bob Robinson, a golf editor/contributor for the Oregonian publication out of Portland. Mr. Robinson stated that in his opinion Aspen Lakes was without question the best of the best in Oregon. I responded with the point that Crosswater was solidly in that mix to which he replied that Aspen was a far better track for the daily fee player. A pretty heady compliment, indeed, opinion-based or otherwise.

I have remained very comfortable with the level of values and qualities inherent with this course and the tremendous repu-tation it has achieved in the ranking of central Oregon golf.

I had no desire to establish some world or area recognition with this project; only that we could present the developer's best shot to the playing public within a very reasonable level of investment. I may very safely state that our success was largely due to my dedicated on-site personal presence and physical input throughout its development.

Its listing by Golf Digest at the No.8 Best New Affordable level in 2001 certainly supports its value and quality, wouldn't you think?  

Regards, Bill

[mdugger1]

Bill,

Tis appears, based on your taking this way too personal, that I have struck a nerve.  While Aspen Lakes is a nice course, this thread was started with a list of 12 greats in the world since 1945.   I am sorry if you are interpreting my comments as disparaging to Aspen Lakes and all that you've done there.  However, you've got to admit that your propagation(sp) of Aspen Lakes is perhaps better served via a different medium.

Or, how about a whole new thread devoted to the course.  I'll drive down to Bend, bring my digi cam along and we'll play 18 holes.  We'll post all the pictures, and once everyone concurs it is the 13th wonder of the world, we'll conclude that Overdorf in Oregon is going to be synonamous with Dye's Teeth of the Dog, Mike Keiser's bluff of dunesland, C & C in Mullen or Fazio's Black Diamond Ranch?

Who, outside of Oregon, knows of Aspen Lakes?   It isn't one of the best two course in the state, let alone one of the 12 greats of the world in the past fifty years.  

Outside of a discussion about 12 greats, I'd love to discuss the merits of Aspen Lakes as it pertains to the Oregon golf, or even Pac NW golf, scene, for that matter.  But, I rest on my claims that it is not worthy of that distinction(as 12 great material), and I'll stick to those regardless of what Mr. Robinson, with all due respect, has to say about the place.

The thread was started with "Frankly, I see 12 great courses built since 1945."  Bill, go back and look at your last post, please.  I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but I'm trying to stick with the material here.  

 :-/
 

    

[ForkaB]

Interesting stuff.  Good to see new people on the site.

I count Turnberry.  The post-WWII Ailsa just used the pre-war course as a palimpsest (hadda bring that word back to this DG again!).

daniel, I'm not sure what you point is regarding Loch Lamond (sic) and Kingsbarns.  Very different situations, development/business models, GCA approaches and golf courses.

Also, daniel, which Ballyliffin course are you referring to?  The old or Glashedy?  I'd put the "old" Old (i.e. pre-Glashedy) on my list.

I'd also add Harbour Town and Applebrook, of the ones I've played.

I like PD a lot, but I wouldn't call it "hard", at least in this company.  Did you maybe play from the "Keiser" tees?

[danielfaleman]

Rich Goodale,

- I didn't say the Pacific Dunes was hard, just that I found it harder than Friar's Head after playing both within two months of each other (-2 handicap). And, we did play from the back tees, who doesn't?

- I'm talking about Glashedy. Faldo loved it so much that he offered to buy the course. Sporting Club Berlin, mentioned in my list, was designed by Faldo and has much of Glashedy in it as do about five more European courses openning in the next few years. Also, Tiger Woods played the course prior to the last British Open, said that he loved it.

- Not downgrading Kingsbarns, exalting Loch Lomond. (I went back and changed my typo in the thread post, Loch Lomond.)  It took ten years to build Loch Lomond: politics, enviromental concerns, land usage, money, etc. Those who built Kingsbarns, including the poiticians and the general public, learned well from those who built Loch Lomond and wanted to emulate its success. Loch Lomond holds the Scottish Open there this year, I'll be there.

[Harrison Wethered]

Danielfaleman

Now you have me confused as to when you played FH and PD.

You said  “I've played Friar's Head twice. I've played six rounds at Pacific Dunes, all Oct. 2002”.  Then you said “Played both courses last fall”.  Now you say that you played “both within two months of each other.”

I can understand why you might be curious about my questions.  If you would be nice enough to just be more specific about when you played FH, I’ll explain why it might matter.    Specific dates not necessary.  Approx time of which month will do.

[danielfaleman]

Harrison Wethered,

I've played Friar's Head within the last six months. That's it.


(By the way, "Daniel" and "Faleman" are my first two names, I do not want my Sir name known on any internet board. I'm from Austin. I don't wan't to name drop with whom I played Friar's Head.)

[ForkaB]

Daniel

Thanks for the reply.

Haven't played FH so can't commment on the playability comparison with PD.  I managed 3 rounds at the latter in one day from the tips and, while certainly not easy, it is not a ball-buster, either (but the wind was fairly benign that day too...).

FYI, Glashedy was just a gleam in the Club's eye when Faldo helicoptered in and then offered to buy Ballyliffin.  He certainly played the Old and probably looked at the site that was to become Glashedy, as I did a month or so before his visit (I didn't offer to buy the place...).

I don't think that the owners of Kingsbarns had to learn anything from the complete cockup that was Loch Lomond until Lyle Anderson came in with his dosh and his marketing expertise.  The Kinsgbarns guys are very smart and experienced and the overall development environment was and is very different in Fife than it is on Loch Lomond.  Enjoy the Scottish Open--if you do play off +2 will you be teeing it up?

Cheers

Rich

[danielfaleman]

Rich,

I play to a -2, not a +2, sadly. I will attempt to enter the Scottish Open through qualifying, winner gets into the Brittish Open the following week.

 

[ForkaB]

Good luck, Daniel

If you need a cheap caddie, let me know.  I can still loop with the best of them (metaphorically speaking).

Rich

[danielfaleman]

Redanman,

Hey, I'm with ya'. I didn't say that the courses on my list are my favorites, for many of the reasons that you state; but they're out there.

[Michael Dugger]

Daniel,

Good luck with the Scottish Open qualifying and so on.  I'd be great to see you at the British.  

I was hoping you could comment a lil about your selection of Bandon and Pacific.  I know that your list is to some degree taking the significance of a project, historically, into effect.  Thus, I can understand Black Diamond's insertion.  

What I am wondering about is Pac and Bandon Dunes.  What exact "moment" occurred with the creation of these two great courses?  Often times, around here, we talk about the notion of a "revolution" happening in golf course architecture.  I'd make the claim that the beginnings of this occurred with the development of Sand Hills in 1995.  Pac and Bandon are an extension of this movement.

What do you think??

[danielfaleman]

mdugger,

"I'd make the claim that the beginnings of this occurred with the development of Sand Hills in 1995.  Pac and Bandon are an extension of this movement."

I agree that the "movement" began with Sand Hills. But, there were several courses built prior to it, eg. Ocean Course at Kiawah (1991), that showed "the way." Sand Hills though, is a perfection of "the way" and as become the standard bearer. Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes stand on their own as golf courses in/and/of themselves, ranking #2 and #4 respectively on the "100 Best Modern Courses" by Golf Week.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug W:

Glad to see you see the "dark side" of the force with Pete Dye. I enjoy what he does more than most because the fear is there on so many holes when you play any of his "classic" designs.

Regarding the listing -- my comments (in no particular order) ...

Sand Hills
Bandon & Pacific Dunes
The Kingsley Club
Ocean Course at Kiawah
The Golf Club
Shadow Creek *I hear redanman's comments and if forced to push this one off I'd add Wade Hampton
Desert Forest *the forerunner to all southwest desert motif golf
Casa de Campo
*A wildcard might also be Forest Highlands / Canyon Course). Why? Unique routing in order to deal with high altitude golf. Think of the combination of 3-par's and 5-par's on the layout.

*I'm mulling on a few others and will add shortly ...

Have to say "no" to the following ...

Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort (wonderful layout but not above what you find in Gothenburg, NE which might also be a contender).

I've also played Aspen Lakes -- wonderful spot to play when you're in Bend (probably the finest summer weather in the USA) but it's doubtful in my book if the course breaks into the top ten there. The best of the best? Hardly. Anyone thinking differently please forward me the brand of wacki tobaci you've been smoking.

Jeff F:

You mention Rustic Canyon and I believe it's something to watch closely because the model developed there can be replicated (see Wild Horse, Twisted Dune, Barona Creek). Moving away from harsh features is something that can be fun while still keeping the game moving. In ten years I'm sure one can look back and analyze what impact, if any, has happened.

[danielfaleman]

Matt_Ward,

I considered Casa de Campo (played polo there once) - like Kiawah Ocean better.

Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort: there before Gothenburg; only 7000 tons of earth moved; built for 150 dollars and a six pack of beer. I play six rounds of golf there every year; course rating when winds are calm (7092 back tees) 73.5, when the wind blows 76 *with a slope of only 126!!*.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Daniel,

Isn't your list confined to ONLY the courses you've played ?

[Matt_Ward]

Daniel --

I hear what you're saying about Links of ND but consider this: What was initiated by Links of ND was PERFECTED by what one sees now at Wild Horse and in my opinion is the optimum in what you don't find at Links of ND although I do like the course there too. It's just the detailing you find at Wildhorse takes it to another level in my mind.

You say you play there six times per year -- do you fly in or do you live reasonably close to Ray, ND?

Have you played Wild Horse and Hawktree? Comments?

Thanks ...

[danielfaleman]

Matt,

I have not played either Wild Horse or Hawktree, you're killing me with curiosity though; I'll get to Wild Horse this Summer.


Each August (gotta' get out of the Central Texas heat) we take the Amtrak train from Chicago (we play golf for a solid week in Chicago) to Williston, and play two rounds each of three days - I love the open spaces there - then we continue with the train west to Spokane where we have family.

[Matt_Ward]

Daniel:

There's been discussion here on GCA about other courses of distinction opening on the great praire. Maybe RJ Daley can comment on the status of a few Nebraska layouts that are coming forward. I understand that one or two may truly be superior and worthy of attention.

Since you said you have not played Wild Horse or Hawk Tree I can say this with some sort of certainty: You will clearly see how Wildhorse has taken the Sand Hills "style" and patterned it to a lesser copycat style, but still including the elements of a superb marriage between the aerial and ground games -- all at an affordable price that simply is an outstanding bargain.

Wild Horse goes beyond Links of ND because the detailing is so carefully carried out. It's truly unfortunate that Links of ND has gone through some financial issues because what often gets "lost in the sauce" is the kind of work that you find at Wild Horse. The interplay between the closely cropped firm fairways, the high fescue rough and the ragged bunkers make for an exciting day of golf.

Since you've played a healthy assortment of superior courses I would be most interested in your thoughts after you play there this summer. All the best ...

matt

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