[Jeff_Lewis]

I recall a quote from Sandy Tatum...something to the effect that there are two games: Golf and Cart-ball. Well, I had the experience of playing cartball at a major, well-regarded resort over the weekend. If golf didn't exist and there was only cartball...I wouldn't even play.

[John_Conley]

Pinehurst, or Pebble Beach?

I spent 5:20 at a Disney course a month ago.  Plus, we teed off :20 late.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Neither.

I guess my point is that I want to implore architects to at least make the facilities they build golf-able, even if they are intended for cart ball. Allow those with the gusto and the pioneering spirit to take the walk and pull a cart, even at facilities dominated by carts.

[John_Conley]

I must've read too much into the word "major".

I don't think you live in Florida.  The type of course you are knocking is unfortunately about all we get.

Harmony was created from a blank slate with the intention to put houses around it later.  This is much different than most housing courses where they tell the golf people to work around lot lines.  Result?  It still has three places where the green-to-tee distance renders the place unwalkable.

[Neil Regan]

On several occasions when I've played where a cart was required (the Concord monster, for example), I've had the misfortune of having my cart break down at the first green. Nothing else to do but carry that bag.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

Shortly after Poppy Hills opened, some colleagues and I played the course and after some hassle were permitted to walk.

But, first we were told that wasn't possible. The only expections were for members of the Northern California Golf Association. Being from Cleveland we weren't exactly members, so we decided to ask whether it was possible to join the association. No dice.

We pressed on asking whether we could walk if we paid the cart fee and joined the association. This provoked a strange look, but accomplished our objective. They decided we must be hard core and let us walk without charging us anything additional.

It is nice to see reports like Bandon Dunes and the American Club (for Whistling Straits) make a commitment to walking. I also like what Stonewall is doing. Their second course will permit carts as a concession to a membership that is gradually aging, but only on the second course. Also, I like what I saw when Tom Doak and Don Placek gave me a tour last fall. Carts will be allowed, but you won't see cart paths all over the place. The issue is being handled with some class. Let's hope they can stick with that.

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Interesting experience at Poppy Hills.  You'll be happy to know that whilst our beloved regional association failed miserably in promoting walking at our 2nd course (Poppy Ridge), the mother course most definitely allows walking now and in fact it is encouraged - there are walking paths cut through the forest, etc.  

As for "cart-ball", I'm not sure if Dan King heard this from Sandy Tatum or vice-versa, but Dan has been calling that in various forums for years.  It all comes down to how hard-core one is about this, and what one values in golf... For me, the walk is a great part of it and I love it, but the hitting of the shots is always going to be the thing... So while I hate being forced to ride on a course that seems to be a doable walk, if it means a lot of hills or for various other reasons, I don't mind riding.

But we've battled this MANY times in this and other forums.  Many, many, many times.  We're all kinda entrenched in this, and that's ok.

TH

[ddavid426]

I had a wonderful experience this past weekend in one of the cart ball capitals of the world, Phoenix.  I played Talking Stick North walking with a friend and it made me realize what you really miss by doing the "resort cart ball" thing.  What a joy!  Great course, great partner, great day.  

I was amused by the two guys in a cart that played with us when they asked why we would walk when the cart was included in the green fee.  One of them concluded that we must be training for some kind of mountain climb or marathon.  They couldn't figure out why anyone would walk a golf course.  I guess this is what it has come to in areas like Phoenix.

[THuckaby2]

That attitude exists here in the SF Bay Area as well... mandatory carts on weekends... people looking at you in disbelief when you choose to walk... oh well, such is golf.

There's a time and a place for carts but there is also a special place in hell for course managers who make carts mandatory at walkable courses.  

TH

[Dan Grossman]

I still don't understand the bad rap that Pebble gets...

I played it the week before the AT&T in 2001 and we played in under four hours.  Plus, I just picked up my bag and walked.  No one said anything to me...

Tom H - I actually walked this weekend at the Presidio.  There were actually a ton of people walking, I was surprised.

[THuckaby2]

DG - I'm with ya re Pebble.  I've had way more good experiences there than bad, walking and time-wise (hell 7 hour rounds in carts there are still a "good" experience given the venue).

And that is very cool to hear re Presidio.  That is a difficult but very doable walk... I've walked there way more than ridden also.  Good to hear it's not just slap you into a cart like the Arnold Palmer management folks were doing for awhile...

TH

[JohnV]

Anyone ever try using the USGA Walking Member badge as a way of getting out of taking a cart?   Just say that you signed a pledge and can't go back on your word.  I have wondered if it would work.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jeff.

"If golf didn't exist and there was only cartball...I wouldn't even play."

Do you honestly mean this?

I tell you what. Let me see you lug a bag around Tehama G.C. and I bet within a week you would be begging for a ride.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jeff.

I take that back. If I had to play Tehama on a regular basis I'd give it up too.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I hear you and I love to walk myself, especially with a caddy.  However, I'm helping a friend on a new course design and he is insistent that the course must have cart paths and that they will need roughly 70% of their rounds to be with a cart.  If not, he doesn't believe the course can be profitable.  It appears cart revenue is becoming a larger and larger factor in the viability of golf courses  
Mark

[Don_Mahaffey]

Everybody blames the golf courses for all the carts in use, and granted some designs are not walker friendly. But, here's one case study. When my partner and I did our pro forma prior to purchase we guessed that 50% of our players would ride. Our course is flat with short walks from greens to tees, a very easy walk. So after 6 months what's reality? 85% of our players pay the extra $10 to ride. We have benches, water stations, walking is cheaper, and yet everybody rides. Is that our fault? We have a lot of college students who play, they all ride. We have a deal with a local professional sports team, all the players ride. The people who walk are the older guys who want the exercise and a very avid group of Asian players who work at a local meat packing plant.

When most people go to play golf, they expect to ride and we who supply golf are simply meeting their requests. I know the golf industry created this scenario, but those funny looks you get in the pro shop is because everyone (it seems like everyone) wants to ride. We have gone out of our way to be walker friendly and only a few walk. Why?

[Dan Smoot]

Just got back from Bandon 10 days ago.  Hooray for commitment from ownership to design a walking paradise such as this.  We had great weather, no wind to speak of and were treated like kings.  Its just you, your friends and the wonderful terrain.  It would not have been same zipping by on a cart.

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