How many shortish holes in a row?

[Pete_Pittock]

Back to back 3s would provide fewer bottlenecks to pace of play. In this stretch the only wait point might be the tee of the short 4.

[DocTerry]

I think if those 3 holes all have good shot value, it doesn't diminish that value to have 3 short holes in a row.  A great course will test every club in the bag during the round and have 18 unique holes that fit into the landscape as naturally as possible.  When the round is finished I judge the course on the compilation of all 18, not necessarily the order of the holes.  If it fits the landscape well, I say go for it.

[Carlyle Rood]

If you've walked the property a few times and have concluded that these are the three best holes, then why would you want to alter them?  They may be consecutive holes; but, as you've said, they're the best holes afforded by the property.

Carlyle

[Doug Siebert]

I'm surprised no one has pointed out TOC.  8-12 are five holes in a row where one may be playing for the green off the tee.  OK, TOC rates high on the "quirk" factor for a number of reasons so if avoiding that is the goal maybe its not the best example.  Wouldn't a lot of it have to do with whether those paying the bills are concerned about being seen as quirky, or expect to be regarded as a "great" course and don't want anything done in the design which would jeopardize that?

I think consecutive par 3s would definitely be harder to do right, but I don't always find it to be a negative.  I'd worry a bit about the fact the shorter hole plays into the wind so the clubs on the two will usually be quite similar, so the shots required would have to be quite different to offset that.  A tough task you'd be setting for yourself!  Preceding this with a driveable par 4 isn't something I'd probably even notice as odd, at least until someone in GCA started a thread asking whether it is too quirky or not.  I don't think it'd be any more odd than preceding two consecutive par 5s with a 475 yard par 4.

There, now that I've given Tom Doak architecture advice, I can call up Ernie Els with some ball striking tips for him to work on at the range tomorrow before I hit the sack...

[paul cowley]

play the first to the top of the blind[assuming a minible distance],the second to the 200yds greensite ,follow with the 150 yarder.
...a 260 yd par three,270 yd par four ,150 par three would be interesting[theoretically,without seeing a topo].

[Gene Greco]

Cypress Point has 7,8 and 9.
Sand Hills has 6,7, and 8.

Your course would be in pretty good company.

[RJ_Daley]

Not enough information offered to have a valid opinion...

Where in the round does this string come, begining, middle, end?

What is the nature of the 330 yard hole in terrain characteristics in a lay-up LZ or around the green?  Is it a foolish play to swing away down wind and go for green, or very tempting?  

I am thinkiing along the lines of Lou Duran, that if it is an easy choice to hit iron-iron on the par 4 then followed by the two similar clubbed holes on the par 3s that go in opposite directions, that it would be more boring than fun quirk.  If that comes late in the round, it isn't compelling in my mind to have this series of holes.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Brad and John V - The Coeur d'Alene Resort was closed last Oct until Jun.  Scott Miller was brought in to re-route the front nine to address the congestion you two guys cite above.  I haven't seen it but have plans to walk it with head pro Mike Delong in April.  JC

[Norbert P]

 How many shortish holes in a row?

  18.  Eighteen. A dozen and a half.  Eahtatlene.

[Jim_H]

The consecutive short holes in the middle of Merion are one the great stetches in golf.

[JAHogan]

A course that fits the land seems more likely to sustain player interest and garner long-term respect than a course that simply intersperses short and long holes.

Interlachen has a couple of interesting stretches of short holes (member tee yardage):

#5 - 155
#6 - 330
#7 - 340

and

#16 - 310
#17 - 205
(often use the same long iron to hit both tee shots, although at perpendicular angles to the wind)

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
As you well know, there are some wonderful courses that have stretches of short holes and that doesn't seem to have too much impact their level of "greatness".   Some of those courses have been cited here already and I'm sure if we thought about it, we could come up with many more.  Clearly, where these holes come in the routing will have some impact.  If they were the finishing holes, they might be questionable.  However, I'm sure you studied the routing options and feel this combination maximizes the potential you can get out of the property.  If you combine two holes into one, you're obviously have to find another hole somewhere and that will potentially change the whole routing.  I'd go with your gut feel.  It seems to have worked well in the past.  You don't consider yourself a "conventional" guy anyway, do you    
Mark

[mike_beene]

Don't do it.Your instincts tell you it's a bad idea or you wouldn't ask.You are good enough to find another way.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
 If you think they are potentially the 3 best holes on property, do you feel that would make the rest of the course pale in comparison? The length of the holes is inconsequential unless you felt the shotmaking requirements would be minimal. Since you state this will be a links course I would think there would be numerous ways to play shots in. I wouldn't use them if they are in the first 4 or 5 holes of the round if they will overshadow the rest of the course.

Overall, I would use Pac Dunes as a yardstick. It is a very unconventional routing, but flows so beautifully that most golfers would be suprised if they played there without a scorecard, to find how "unbalanced" it is.

Go with your gut, you've done great so far.

[Norbert P]

 "How many shortish holes in a row?"

                    XVIII

[Tom_Doak]

Gentlemen,

Thanks to all for the advice.

I agree in general that three such holes in a row could be an asset rather than a liability ... no one mentioned Ballybunion, which has three short holes wrapped around a short par 5 from 12 to 15.

I would be inclined to use these three holes if there were no other mitigating factors, but of course there are.  The hole following the second par three might entail a blind water hazard (though it is a bay) after a poor drive, so I'm thinking of converting that hole into a short 4 plus a par 3 ... and I probably wouldn't combine THAT with the pattern already described.

Some of the suggested solutions simply won't work.  Combining the first two holes into a par 5 would leave a 520 yard hole straight downwind with a blind second shot and the next tee close at hand ... can't do that.  And there's no wiggle room to extend either of the first two holes because of topography behind and other holes close by either side.

The client is not really a golfer, or I would have asked him first for feedback.  Absent that, I appreciate your input.  I'll let you know what I decide, but it will probably be a while before it's a golf course due to permitting issues.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Take what's there, Tom. Go for it. Quaker Ridge 8th hole is about 350, followed by 9( in my opinion the best hole on the course at about 165) and 10 at about 205. They are preceeded by 6 and 7, which are considered as good a back-to-back set of par 4s as there are, and followed by 11 and 12, which are also phenomenal back-to-back 4s. It works.

[CjM111]

It is so hard to really try to put something in place when the actual topography will dictate what might be the best routing.  Obviously, Tom, you have great experience in trying to create the best product.  In talking with Bill Coore several years ago, he related that to he and Ben, it was important to try to design a golf course that has 18 very good holes, rather than a course that has a group of adequate holes and one or two spectatular holes...a la "the signature hole," a term far too overused and a concept that works for some, but apparently with designers who prefer to try to create a routing that has memorable holes that are enjoyable to play and "fit."  Guess that leads to my opinion.  Without seeing the land, topography, elevations, sites, surrounding land, and knowing how these holes fit with the remainder of the routing.  But, might it be possible to have a 3-4-3, with a shortish 3 like the postage stamp, maybe not playing directly downwind, but angularly, then a 4 that might be about 400 yards, followed by the 3 par back into the wind?  Whatever the best solution, living with the site for a while will provide you the answer.  It has in the past.  Use the force....Tom.