Weaknesses of Yeamans Hall?

[Ran Morrissett]

Like every course, I'm sure it has some but unlike some others, I have trouble figuring out what they are!

The sole remaining non-Raynor green (the 1st) is being restored as a Double Plateau in the next few months by Jim Urbina, so the Club has that situation in hand.

My least favorite hole is the 9th and if the original bunkering scheme was brought back with the fearsome right bunker off the tee, then I would be at a loss to pick the least indifferent hole on the course.

The angles aren't right on the Road hole but....the hole is still plenty strong.

Honestly, what are the other weaknesses? The course has good width now but it can stand to be that extra bit wider but that's part of a normal fine tuning process.

For fun for a 15 year old as well as a 75 year old, I would give Yeamans Hall a perfect "10". Presentation? Another perfect score with Jim Yonce year after year providing ideal playing conditions of hard fairways and greens. I can't name five courses in the U.S. that are better presented - can you?

Variety? The one shotters are the classic Raynor mix, the two shotters have several gem drive and pitch holes in the 2nd, 10th and 12th on up to several brutes capped off with Raynor's Prize Dogleg. As for three shotters, more than one person considers the 18th their favorite hole on the course. Throw in some other original holes like the 8th and 14th and it seems to me that the course scores high on variety as well.

In the end, I keep coming back to GREAT greens + GREAT presentation = GREAT course, similar to Camargo which is presently #51 in the world according to GOLF. Against the world elite at the top of that list, I appreciate that the topography at Yeamans doesn't readily lend itself to a 13 at Pine Valley or a 9 at Royal County Down or a 5 at Fishers Island.

Still, hole for hole, Yeamans seems like a strategic stand out and without seeing/understanding any weaknesses, I agree with the old articles that Bahto references calling it one of the three or four best courses in the south.

Cheers,

[SteveC]

Ran,

What's wrong with the #1 green? Is it not true to the original?

As for your overall commentary, I agree wholeheartedly. I keep going back to Yeamans as the complete package, shot-wise, strategy-wise, and maintenance-wise. And I LOVE the 18th. The Redan is a very close 2nd. They're right up there with 6 at The Creek, 17 at NGLA, and a couple of others on my "favorite holes" list.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ran,

Did the Biarritz 16th ever have the full green in front of the swale?

As it is now, it's just green behind the swale, but it's a very good, smallish green back there, with a "spine" running N-S through the green, dividing into two sections length-wise, with good movement in each section in addition to the spine's movement.


Also, it's admirable of Jim Yonce to have the course running fast & firm despite overseeding the fairways in winter.  Rye is a rather "sticky" grass.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Yes, perhaps someone could explain the 16th to me.  It seems about 4 years ago there was a swale in the middle of the green.  It doesn't seem like a true biaaritz at present.  Also I don't enjoy the 18th that much.  It is a drive, long lay-up to tight opening on left and then can you stick a wedge under the hole for birdie putt.  Our matches on the 18th always get halved with pars. 17 is where the matches are won and lost.  But otherwise the presentation, ambience, green variety and routing are world class.  I could play it the rest of my life.  I think the 1st green is just fine.  When I play there with friends, we try and walk 36, break for chili dogs between rounds, dinner in Charleston--pretty good day for guys.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ran,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a tremendous amount of credit must be given to Doak and Urbina for the work they've done on the greens there, at Yeaman's Hall.

Less than a decade ago, I understand, those putting surfaces were pretty bland. Today, they're described as perhaps Raynor's best collection of greens. What's funny is, they're Doak/Urbina greens!

[BCrosby]

Yeaman's is a wonderful course. Full credit to the membership for their sensitivity to the architiecutral significance of the the course and for binging in Doak and Urbina to restore it. We are blessed to have it.

But I'm not sure it's a perfect course.

I like no. 1 green as it is. The hole leaves an awfully long approach (mid-iron for most) for a double plateau putting surface.  

No. 5 doesn't have much going on. What am I missing?

I expected big things from the Road hole. Again, not much seemed to be going on other than the wedge-shaped green, which is kinda funky.

No. 9 is a mediocre hole. Glad to hear changes will be made. Will they be doing anything around the green?

I was born with a defect. Can't do anything about it. I don't like Biarritz holes. They strike me as highly artificial and not very interesting strategically. What more is involved than distance control with a long iron or fairway wood? Are there other tradeoffs? Should I be working the ball one way or another?

No. 18 is nice, but I don't understand why anyone would call it their favorite par 5 in the world.

Don't misconstrue the above. I love Yeaman's. A very special course. Just not sure it lives up to a "10". rating. That's pretty high cotton.

Bob


  

[Mike_Cirba]

Yeamans is a wonderful place, with a low-key, understated charm and lovely ambiance.

However, I would ask which holes there are "world class", if we're talking about it as a "10" on any scale.  

Personally, I found much of the front nine to hardly raise the pulse (although the 8th is exceedingly scenic), while the back (starting with the wonderful 10th green) to be far superior, even if a few of the final holes are merely solid.  

Yes, there are some nice subtleties, but here's the rub...the land Yeamans is on is simply not very exciting for the most part.

If Yale were in half the condition of Yeamans, it would be in the top 20 courses in the country, by way of comparison.  

Or, put another way, how many holes at Yeamans stir the blood in the way holes like 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 10, 14, 17, & 18 at Yale do?

[GeoffreyC]

Yeamons Hall is perhaps the poster child of fine Southern hospitality and charm.  It begins with the drive into the club and continues at the clubhose and the views onto the golf course. I can't think of a course in the South that makes you feel more welcome.

That said, I really have to agree with Mike.  The front 9 really needs a lot of work. The topography (or lack thereof) on the front 9, however,  prevents the real adrenoline rushes some of Raynor's holes usually provide.  #2 even though it's flat as Calista (Sp) Flockhart is an exception given its great angles of play and resulting strategy. The redan is also really fine hole. My biggest disappointment was the short hole.  Its just not on a piece of land that inspires.  MAybe if you place the flag right behind the horseshoe you get some interesting putting but nothing else about it stirs me at all.  Even Yale which is on similar ground at least had   terifying deep bunkers surrounding the platform green.  Certainly YH short hole is not in the same league as National and really can't touch short holes at lesser known courses such as Whippoorwill or Blind Brook.

The back nine is fantastic.  Fix up some of the greens and bunkering on the front nine and it will go up considerably in my estimation. At #38 on the GW classic list I think its currently a bit high.

[RJ_Daley]

I think that 14,16,17,18 are one of the best set of finishing holes I can think of.  I leave out 15 as being a bit bland, but not at the green.  Yeamans and Lawsonia are so much alike, it amazes me. They are courses of a particular kind, with that soul factor that Cirba was speaking of.  My only time at Yeamans was like stepping into a novel set in the old gentrified south.  I took a peak in the locker room and is was like an etherial golden haze with sun peaking into the semi dark room from windows above the old lockers.  Nothing modern or sleek or slick about it.  It was like looking in grandpas wardrobe closet.  The old foyer of the club house with creaky wooden floors and worn yet fine carpeting looked like a place to set a play.

But, the course is indeed a place I would be very happy to be a member and play regularly.  Yeamans and old Charleston are a perfect match.

[George_Bahto]

The Biarritz at Y/H never had the full "double-green" putting surface - there were just handful (at best) that did.

Yeamans Hall's Biarritz "front section" appears to have been bulldozed around quite a bit (an understatement). There may have been a ledge of sorts at the beginning of the front section and I think it was feathered away toward the tee because a "ground ball" would not have reached even the front section. There is a definite slope of the front section toward the tee.

The history of the course over the years seems (?) to have been to make the course easier - green undulations lost and bunkers covered in.

Fortunately this is in the process of being corrected thanks, early on, to a few members - Henry Terri in particular - and recently by a larger numbers of members and of course the administration, members of the staff and of course Jimmy Yonce, the soop.

Many many bunkers have been lost over the years - the course was fiercely bunkered.

This was/is one of Seth Raynor's best course designs.

The hospitality of the club and the ambiance of the experience of Yeamans Hall Club would be very hard to surpass.

Fun weekend there last weed despite a band of desperadoes led by a certain Sturges from Indiana and a group of Morrissetts (hah)

[GeoffreyC]

George

It must drive you absolutely nuts to see so much of the teeth of Raynor/Banks courses taken away over the years. I know that it bothers me to no end to see your old photos or hear your descriptions of some holes that are neutered in the name of fairness or some other reason. (Ran- please don't get back to me and say that I think Yeamons is neutered   because I think its a fantastic course today and could be so much better if fully restored as George describes)

[Ran Morrissett]

Mike says that "I found much of the front nine to hardly raise the pulse" and Geoffrey says "The topography (or lack thereof) on the front 9, however, prevents the real adrenoline rushes some of Raynor's holes usually provide."

Guys, what do you think of courses set on a plain/heath like Garden City GC/Walton Heath? Are they too flat to get the blood rushing? In terms of how such courses with sandy soil actually play, how do you value the ground game alternatives vs. the rocky soil at Yale? Doesn't flat topography provide an architect with flexibility in the placement of hazards off the tee while wild topography like Yale/Fishers can be restricting in that regard?

Take a hole like 4 at Yeamans. Essentially flat, Raynor doesn't screw up the landscape with wall to wall shaping but rather installs central hazards in the form of the Bottle bunker configuration and builds up a green with an attractive false front. Given the sandy soil, the wind, and the firm playing conditions, the hole is a sheer delight to play as it represents a pure form of golf - the softness of man's hand on that flat portion of the property seems highly commendable from a design stand point.

Ditto for the 5th (central Alps bunker/bold spine through green) where I always wonder how some modern architects would torture the landscape tee to green in a false effort to spice things up - perhaps mounds out of play as opposed to the serpentine cops that Yonce re-introduced that are IN the fairway?

Don't get me wrong - neither the 4th or 5th would rival the all world 4th at Seminole but conversely, I would stack the five weakest holes at Yeamans against the 1st, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th holes at Seminole.

Cheers,

PS Lyn, Given your legendary game, the 18th might get more fascinating with more play as you would have a crack at it in two every few rounds. My group saw a missed eagle putt to an X there this past weekend. Plus, we also played it from Raynor's original tee as a two shotter, which has its own rewards.

[GeoffreyC]

Ran

I'll agree about the 1st, 7th and 9th at Seminole but #8 is pretty strong. Very few places have holes as good as #4 at Seminole but all the true greats have ones that we can discuss and compare the merits of with a reasonable basis for each side of the argument being correct.

Are you putting YH in the same company as Garden City? That's pretty strong company.  Garden City has some bunkering that gets your attention on every hole.

Lets wait and see if YH is fully restored as George described some of those front 9 holes and then maybe we can hold it up in the same company as Garden City.

Now before you blow off more steam at me I really loved the course and would enjoy seeing it again.  Remember you started the topic with the question- WEAKNESSES of YH? As you said and I agreed- When you are 75 and off to play where would you rather have a game- at YH or trudging up and down the hills at Yale - answer - YH.  

Well - I'm off to the left coast- see you all in 10 days.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran;

I agree with Geoffrey that it comes down to the somewhat benign "hazards" on the front nine at Yeamans.  The bunkering at Yeamans, particularly on the front nine, just doesn't create the same type of stimulating excitement as Garden City, for instance, which I LOVE despite its somewhat flattish terrain.

From your pictures;







As I mentioned, things begin to pick up considerably on the back nine, but in many ways, the front at Yeamans reminds me of another Raynor course I played recently, where much of the sharp, penal edges have been tempered negatively over the years, that being Southampton Golf Club.

If one also heeds George Bahto, who tells us how many bunkers have been removed or otherwise neutred at Yeamans over the years, one can only optimistically hope that someday a FULL restoration will be done.  At that point, your question about the weaknesses of Yeamans will no doubt be more difficult to answer.