Best & Worst / Private v Public

[Matt_Ward]

I was reading a few back issue of Golf Digest and one of the topics centered around those locales in the USA that have poor pubic golf. My question becomes a bit more broader -- what counties have the greatest gap between high caliber private golf versus what's available to the masses.

A few places jumped to the top and they include ...

1). Westchester / NY
2). Bergen County / NJ
3). Suffolk County / NY
4). Fairfield County / CT
5). Essex County / NJ

I wonder if there are other counties that are that wide in the gap offered between private and public facilities for that respective county.

Thanks!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Delaware County, PA
Hooker County, NE
Richmond County, GA
San Mateo, CA (especially since parts of Olympic and SFGC are in the county)

[Mike Benham]

The private courses would win for the San Francisco and Northern San Mateo County area:

Private:  Olympic, SFGC, Lake Merced, Cal Club, Green Hills
Public: Harding Park, Lincoln, Gleneagles ...

[buckeye_bob]

Another reverse answer is Columbus/Oh,(4)Private Great Tracks with (1)M/B, and a various assortment of mundane Public albeit (1)Jones ,Sr turned Public course.

[Kevin_Reilly]

The private courses would win for the San Francisco and Northern San Mateo County area:

Private:  Olympic, SFGC, Lake Merced, Cal Club, Green Hills
Public: Harding Park, Lincoln, Gleneagles ...

Don't forget Presidio, Sharp Park, Crystal Springs (doh!) and the old San Mateo Muni (I forget the new name, sorry Gib) in your listing of public courses in SF/Northern San Mateo.

[Dan Kelly]

...poor pubic golf...

I don't even want to think about it!

(Every editor's nightmare.)

[tmb]

We all love to play great courses with excellent facilities. I belong to a beautiful private club. But, every time I read articles about public and private facilities, I fondly remember learning to play golf on a 9 hole scrubbed grass course with dandelions growing in the greens. And when it all came together with my Sam Snead Blue Ridge clubs(that my parents bought with S&H Green Stamps), the feeling I had hitting a wonderful shot is as exhilirating when I execute a wonderful shot today on my private course.

I'm wondering if we sometimes get too focused on the course, and forget that it's golf first...ourself...the swing...the experience.

[Andy_Lipschultz]

I think the gap between private and public in L.A. County is rather wide.

Riviera
Bel Air
LACC
Sherwood
Lakeside
Valencia

and then the 2nd tier: Wilshire, Brentwood, El Cab.

And now for the public courses:

Forget it; it's too depressing.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I think you're listing of LA County may be one of the best and worthy of top five status.

I still think Westchester (NY) grabs the big prize because beyond the private side of the ledger the public side is really depressing. Clearly, those with money had no desire to build public courses for the masses an dhave their taxes go up in the process!

Nassau and Suffolk counties on the Island are also quite low on the meter of quality public golf -- minus Bethpage Black, Montauk Downs and a few recent CCFAD's.

In my home state of NJ the counties of Bergen and Essex win in a walk because the private side in those two counties is better than at minimum a dozen states in the USA for overall course quality.

I just wonder why the major gaps never took place in other older communities such as Chicago?

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I grew up in Westchester and lived in LA. You are absolutely right. Westchester wins the prize. Not even close.

P.S. On the opposite end of the spectrum is Cleveland. It blows away either the Nork York area or LA for affordable public golf. Nearby Pittsburgh is pretty damn good as well.

[George Pazin]

Pittsburgh golf is indeed damn good, but with a huge asterisk.

Pittsburgh public golf is extremely affordable & plentiful, even for po folk like myself:), but I wonder how good it is relative to the privates like Oakmont, Fox Chapel, Field Club, Allegheny, etc. (see other thread on Pittsburgh golf for more).

There is tons of affordable golf - many public courses, actually, probably most public courses can be walked for around $20.

Still, to compare almost any of these courses to the privates seems like a pretty big stretch to me.

In other words, there seem to be lots of public 3s (Doak scale), but not many that would rate any higher. Tons of fun for a avid hack like me, but is there really much quality public golf? I'd love an old muni by Ross or some other oldie - guess I'll have to jump in the car & head to Bedford.

[Gene Greco]

If Peconic County ever comes to fruition which would allow the south fork of Long Island to secede from Suffolk County, you would have a new number one!

One of only three public courses just closed (Poxabogue, an executive course) and another used to have sand greens until 1989!

Of course, the cast of privates (Shinnecock et al) is overwhelming.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'll throw out Cook Co. as one that has many many courses, and the gap between the good and the bad is constant. Since, as Doak has observantly noted, most Chicagoland courses have little diversity but the gap that Matt quieries is there and is wide.
Sure, you'll have your exceptions like Cog Hill or Pine Meadows but they are but a few and the courses they be a many.

The irony here in Farmington is the gap in the opposite direction. The one Private is, to say the least, a house lined joke. While pinon is everything a private course would want. Mostly open space.
As I've speculated in the past, part of the problems us masses are facing here may in fact be due to the conflicts of interest that exist between the CC members who sit on the committee and make decisions for pinon.

[corey miller]

Is there still talk of "Peconic" county?  What once seemed like a neat idea, sucession from suburban Suffolk creating a county of gentlemen farmers and dentists seems to lack the charm when it is now a bunch of investment bankers trying to succeed.  The natural link-up would be Manhattan county which would win this debate by acclimation.

[Tim_Weiman]

George Pazin:

I agree with your comments about affordable golf in Pittsburgh. Don't know if it has quite the quantity of this as Cleveland, but I doubt there are many places better.

I still think Oakmont East is a blast for a scramble.

[Gene Greco]

Talk of Peconic County is always on the table.

Actually, it would also include the north fork.

Here is a list of privates which would be in Peconic County:

Fishers Island  
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Friars Head
Maidstone
Southampton Golf Club (Raynor)
East Hampton Golf Club (Coore)
Bridgehampton GC
Southfork (Hanse)
Noyac
Atlantic (Rees)
The Bridge (Rees)
Laurel Links (Kelley Blake Moran)
North Fork GC
Gardiner's Bay (Raynor)



List of Public Courses:

Sag Harbor - had dirt greens until 1989
Montauk Downs
Islands End (semi private)

[Matt_Ward]

What's really amazing is that beyond the "waste of time" public alternatives you have in Westchester County (by the way I'm so tired of hearing from those who say otherwise and always harp on the fact "if only" they were in shape, blah, blah, blah) but the absolutey limited options for quality public golf on the Island is also not that much better.

Yes, you have Bethpage State Park and minus the Yellow all of the layouts are good and the Red can be even better than what is is today. You do have a few CCFAD's such as The Links at Shirley, Tallgrass, LI National, to name just three and a few town / state courses such as Oyster Bay and Montauk Downs. But the gap is really amazing. What's often not said is how often the big names of design in the 20's and 30's really abandoned public golf and almost always, with few exceptions (Tillie at Bethpage) opted for the private side of the development equation.

The same holds true for Bergen and Essex Counties in NJ which really have no semblance in understanding public golf. All one has to do is look and see the destruction that bebell the former Essex County CC / West (now knowns as Francis Bryne). This former gem of a layout has been systematically reduced to nothing more than a big field with holes in the ground with the exception of a few holes (most notably the 15th) that still contain vestiges of their former self.

I think you also have to include the entire State of Connecticut when the subject of quality public golf comes up because even with its per capita income being the highest in the nation there is so very, very few quality public course alternatives. You do have Richter Park -- if you can snare a tee time and, of course, if you want to ring up a good size bil on your credit card you can venture to a few of the CCFAD's that are really mediocre designs for the most part. Compare Connectcut private golf versus public golf and t's truly mind boggling the Grand Canyon gap that exists.

What's my point on this thread? Simple. The rest of the country is rising quickly with a number of wonderful and exciting alternatives in the public side of the design equation. Yes, the factor of land costs is clealy an issue in the overdeveloped areas of the Northeast but if one looks closely you will find there's plenty happening that is rising the stock of golf in areas far too often overlooked because of all the time and attention spent talking about the great classics that exist in the Northeast -- keep in mind they're all private with very few exceptions (Bethpage / Black).